Golf Course Meetings?
Philadelphia Mountain Biking Association - Forums
*
 
Pages: [1]
« previous next »
  Print  
Author Topic: Golf Course Meetings?  (Read 967 times)
DannyC21
Bronze Member
Expert
*
Posts: 136



View Profile Email
« on: August 11, 2008, 12:17:52 PM »
I noticed golf course meetings, or should I put it GOLF COURSE MEETINGS!!, was placed on the list of upcoming events.  I also noticed the fine print when I opened the link.

I'm curious to know more about what is going on.  Is the FPC considering selling the Walnut Lane Golf course?  (they do own it right?)  Is the FOW considering purchasing the land?

I'm curious to learn more.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 09:55:33 PM by Lust4singletrack » Logged
Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
*****
Posts: 1196


Energy is always flowing. Ride it.

tgunz75@aol.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2008, 12:33:23 PM »
Basically the golf courses are losing money for the city so they want to close them. We need to have a good showing at these meetings. We have some ideas on how the land can actually generate money instead of losing it and a Skill Park for bikes is part of that plan. Tell every rider you know about the meetings and ask them to attend. Tell your LBS. Tell your race team. Tell that guy that smoked you on the golf course climb the other day......Tell all the riders you know.
Logged
Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
DannyC21
Bronze Member
Expert
*
Posts: 136



View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2008, 12:57:37 PM »
Sounds like a pretty good plan.  Luckily one of the meetings (11th) falls on a thursday and I don't have an evening class.  I'll show my face at that one.

I'd love to learn about all these ideas.  I think a skills park would be awesome and I'd love to be a part of making that happen.  Even just having that land become part of the Wiss again would awesome.
Logged
fishnchips
Platinum Member
Addict
****
Posts: 757



View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2008, 02:20:17 PM »
With the positive reviews and the Wiss' established MTB history, it's starting to become a destination for riders in other parts of the country, and that's good for Philadelphia. We need to pump the business benefits.   

I wonder if we could commission some kind of evening usage study? I was told a while back that there are far more hikers and other users than MTB riders, and the fact that we see more bikes is because we cover more ground. But I don't think that is true any longer. Sure on the weekends there are more hikers, but I think, at least as far as the upper trail is concerned, there are more bikers. There are certainly more bikers on an evening.

I think FOW used some kind of specialized ground counters for their studies that could actually tell whether a bike/ horse or hiker passed. We should see if we can do the same thing...   
Logged
Kelly
DannyC21
Bronze Member
Expert
*
Posts: 136



View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2008, 02:46:53 PM »
Quote
We need to pump the business benefits.

What kind of benefit could a skills park bring the FPC?  I think thats going to be a big point.  Jess I completely agree that during the weekdays I see a lot more riders than I do hikers, but how many of those riders are going to pay to use a skills park regularly?  Thats what I'm trying to figure out.  I know the FPC is not going to create something thats going to become another FDR skatepark (I love this skatepark so please don't think I'm bashing it), in their park, so I'm curious to know how the group plans to approach the FPC with this idea.

I think a skills park could be a great promotion for the park.  It could generate more weekend riders from different areas, but wouldn't you have to way the impact of too many non-frequent riders clogging the trails?  Especially on weekends?  They may also not have the same respect to the park as we all do.

There seems to be a lot to mull over, and I'm sure I'm just scratching the surface.  I've also recently joined this group so I'm unfamiliar with how much of this has been discussed and planned out. 

I apologize if I'm repeating anything or if I'm probing into this too much.   
Logged
Lou
PMBA Moderator
Addict
*****
Posts: 910


a.k.a. dirtmerchant


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2008, 02:53:57 PM »
All great questions and concerns Dan! While there is no "right" answer, a bunch of us have talked about this for hours, and even done some leg work towards getting one approved. But this issue will fill up this forum very quickly as there is a LOT of things to consider. Some quick benefits would be:
-Dedicated area for riders seeking skills to ride, which would mean less traffic on trails and eliminate rogue skills trails building within the park
-Dedicated and SAFE area for kids to come ride their BMX bikes and small mountain bikes
-SUPER FUN area to build on your bike handling skills which will make for safer riders on the XC trails
-Chance to be RAD or at least pretend you are RAD
-grounds will be LOW maintenace and LOW environmental impact especially when compared to golf course
-Grounds will be maintained by the USERS, ie US. Won't require costly personell

 Grin
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 02:55:42 PM by Lou » Logged
Mmmmmmmm, post ride beers
DannyC21
Bronze Member
Expert
*
Posts: 136



View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2008, 04:10:06 PM »
That all makes a lot of sense and I can definitely see why it would be great to have a skills park. Don't get me wrong I am in favor of this idea, and I am willing to help in any possible way to get this project rolling.  I just tend to ask questions to keep people on their toes  Grin

My questions all stem from what the FPC may think. When I think skills park I tend to think of the FDR Skatepark.  For those who have been there, you know it is an awesome place built and maintained by skaters, but to some local park enthusiasts, it is a huge blemish on the park.  I'm not sure what the FPC thinks about it, but I know the city likes it because it keeps kids far away from Love park. 

So do you think the FPC will be willing to give a section of the Wiss over to build an area for MTBers, risking the chance it could be tattooed to death like FDR?  Will PMBA personally be responsible for its care? 

I can definitely see it being a huge benefit to have a place where PMBA can hold clinics and teach trail advocacy and things like that.  I'm just curious as to how it will be convincing the FPC of its benefits.  I'm just not sure how lobbying to the FPC works.  I've never done it and so I'm not sure how they feel about issues. 

I'll probably learn a lot more about this when I go to the meeting.
Logged
Dmitri
Platinum Member
Addict
****
Posts: 848


dzorine
View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2008, 04:18:46 PM »
"Blemish" can be addressed by properly designing and lanscaping the "skills" park and it can be blended into the park and natural wooded area a lot better than a golf course.

I think the biggest issue would be fo rPMBA to get established and prove in the eyes of FPC and the city that we are here to stay, and will disapear in a year or two and abandon that area.

FOW has been around since 1924 and is going strong taking care of a lot of issues and areas in the park. IMBA has been around for decades. PMBA is IMBA chapter, and there is no reason for us not to stick around indefinitely. But there have been several bike clubs that came and went quickly over the years. We are only 2 years old, we need to earn the trust in our logivity.

It will happen. Just be patient.

dz
Logged
I crash therefore I am!
Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
*****
Posts: 1196


Energy is always flowing. Ride it.

tgunz75@aol.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 09:28:47 AM »
Have some important info obout the golf course meeting and even more of a reason for us to have a strong presence at the public meetings.

It turns out that a meeting was already held where user groups who currently have lease holds on park land were invited to discuss what to do with the land that the golf course is on. PMBA was not at this meeting because we don't hold any land (yet). It would be a perfect place for us to finally put our bike park, some of us have been working on this for years. Since the formation of PMBA is not so far fetched anymore.

This is where it gets bad. A women stood up and suggested a bike park on the land. She put her neck out there for us. Well the guys who runs the golf course started to yell at her, loudly, and to the point where she was forced to leave the meeting. This is not right in so many ways! He has some opposition against the idea of a skill park but it may be because he does not know what it's about.

WE NEED to be at the meeting and make sure we state our role as a legitamate and contributing user group to those who may not understand. We don't want to lose our cool but a strong presence will go a long way. Please tell everyone you know about the meeting and ask them to attend.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 02:05:09 PM by Lust4singletrack » Logged
Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
crabapple hits
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 296


View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2008, 11:08:12 AM »
I can't believe she was shouted out of the meeting - felt like a dog with her tail between her legs I am sure!

This CAN'T happen again! I am for going to these meetings so please post them, when and where!
Logged
Lou
PMBA Moderator
Addict
*****
Posts: 910


a.k.a. dirtmerchant


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 11:18:38 AM »
I personally can't wait to watch this guy step on his own dick, more so than he already has. I am going to make him cry because his life will come crumbling down when I intelligently educate him (and all the other non-bikers in attendance) about the postivie aspects of a legitimate bike park. He has NO LEG to stand on. I can't wait to hear all the bullsh*t he spews, and we will methodically address his BS and shut him down... This is going to be really fun. And I will ask Ruffian to sit right next to me...
Logged
Mmmmmmmm, post ride beers
DannyC21
Bronze Member
Expert
*
Posts: 136



View Profile Email
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2008, 11:42:13 AM »
Thats horrible.  This guy couldn't even have a discussion with someone and let them express their ideas. 

He must be real bitter than he is going to lose his golf course.  I will definitely try and make either both or one of the meetings.  It'll depend on how my night classes interfere. 
Logged
fishnchips
Platinum Member
Addict
****
Posts: 757



View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 12:26:43 PM »
I have to suggest we take the high ground and remain completely calm in dealing with folks like this.

First of all, this is now 4th-hand knowledge. I heard about it briefly from Maura, ED of FOW, and she wasn't there. I passed it along to Lou and Tom, so what this guy really did or how it played out I don't know.

I do know from experience of talking with a few hundred trail users that any kind of 'argument' is beyond pointless. You are better off staying calm, listening, even empathize with their concerns, but then hit them with the truth. Of course, I haven't seen too many that are violently against bikers though.

Just a side story here, but yesterday at the TMD, I'm busy chatting up people, and I'm talking to this one couple about the STI, and the lady says, in a whisper tone, "but what do we do about all the bikers?" !!!   I of course, was standing their in my PMBA shirt! 

I was able to respond, though.. I said that we were the bikers and we were ones working on the trail and working to address everything from sight lines to trail etiquette, and that we were going above and beyond to make the trail experience better for all, and how MTB has been a great way to encourage many new people to get out and enjoy the great outdoors while encouraging a healthy lifestyle.

When we do deal with this at a meeting, it's great to have a plan in place. I don't say we have to have the whole skills park designed by the meeting, but we have to know the benefits and advantages to the park and to Philadelphia. I met more than one rider from out of town yesterday, just coming to ride the Wiss because they heard how great it was. It's actually becoming a reason why people might visit Philly. Imagine Philly being an MTB travel destination like Fruita or BC?  Grin
Logged
Kelly
Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
*****
Posts: 1196


Energy is always flowing. Ride it.

tgunz75@aol.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2008, 12:32:01 PM »
Thanks Jess. I agree 100% and I'm already ahead of you.
Logged
Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
Droptopchevy
Bronze Member
Newbie
*
Posts: 47


NTM111
View Profile Email
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2008, 01:16:25 PM »
Gimme a time and a place for these meetings. I'll see about showing up since I will be in the city for school. If it comes to developing a list of people for a skill park, I'm sure Scott at BCBC will let a sign up sheet be present at the front desk. We currently have one for a pedestrian/bicycle path on the reconstruction of the Scudder Falls Bridge.
Logged
I fix Huffys and such at BCBC.
Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
*****
Posts: 1196


Energy is always flowing. Ride it.

tgunz75@aol.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 01:58:02 PM »
Working on the time and place. Stand by.

Please note that I've made some changes to my original post so it does not sound so much like we need to send a lynch mob after this guy. He is losing his livelyhood after all. But it is still very important for there to be A LOT of us there so the idea of a bike park is actually put in the plans, and not looked at in a negative way, because it is not a negative thing. And it's also important for us to be cool and not confrontational. Being confrontational is not what is going to get us our bike park.

So remember, we're not going just to get this guy who opposes the idea but we're going to make sure our needs are part of the plan for this land. We deserve it, and if we show that, we may get it. The city hired some consultants to help them with what to do with the land, and a bike park is being considered. So the more POSITIVE (as in no screaming) support we show for this the better chance it has of being part of the plan.

I will see you all there. Tell your friends. Sorry for the confusion and I'll get the time and place asap.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 02:13:06 PM by Lust4singletrack » Logged
Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
DannyC21
Bronze Member
Expert
*
Posts: 136



View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2008, 02:30:14 PM »
Has anyone from the IMBA crew had any ideas on how to go about handling a skills park proposal to a park commission?  They may have some experience and ideas on how to approach the meeting. 

Just a suggestion.  Couldn't hurt to ask them what they think.
Logged
stymie
Platinum Member
Amateur
****
Posts: 86


stymie_miasma
View Profile
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 03:11:46 PM »
I remember reading about a Canadian rider who is also big into designing skills parks. Maybe this could be his first project "south of the border"?!

http://www.hoots.ca/skills_parks/
Logged
C'est la vie!
Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
*****
Posts: 1196


Energy is always flowing. Ride it.

tgunz75@aol.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 05:51:37 PM »
Quote
Has anyone from the IMBA crew had any ideas on how to go about handling a skills park proposal to a park commission?  They may have some experience and ideas on how to approach the meeting. 

Just a suggestion.  Couldn't hurt to ask them what they think.
 

Yep. We're in discussion. Thanks Danny. Keep the ideas and creative minds a flowin. We want to show the city that this will be a good idea.
Logged
Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
Rico
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 413


ricolaa1970 ricocpa
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2008, 09:06:43 AM »
Is the main reason for the conversion / sale of the golf course because of revenue? 

Is the city thinking of selling or converting the land?  I am assuming if they are considering converting it, and still owning the land, they want to get some sort of revenue from it. 

If that were the case, how would a skills park generate revenue?  Would there be an admission fee, membership dues, etc.?

If they are selling, is it the intention of PMBA to be one of the potential buyers?

....you can see the accountant coming out in my post.   Smiley
Logged
You must let nothing deter you in your quest for ALL.....No, ALL!
Lou
PMBA Moderator
Addict
*****
Posts: 910


a.k.a. dirtmerchant


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2008, 11:07:58 AM »
Yo Rico, very good questions! From what I understand they are looking at generating revenue, rather than losing money. A golf course is very costly to maintain. So by simply closing it they will save money. I doubt there will be a fee to ride because that opens them up to liability. But there could be some revenue from vendors that want to capitalize on a bike park. For instance a food vendor can come in and set up a little cafe and sell food and drinks. Also a bike shop could come in a have a small shop set up and sell services and bike parts. Etc... These are just ideas that we have thrown around and I am sure there are a lot more ideas how the city could earn a little revenue from this rather than blowing tons of cash on a golf course that basically sucks anyway. Have you seen the fairways and greens at that course?!?!!?  Shocked  The whole idea for these meetings is for the Fairmount Park Conservancy to get options on these golf courses...

Here is the original email I received from them:

Lou:

I am emailing you to inquire on PMBA's interest in developing a mountain bike course as part of a reconfiguration strategy for Walnut Lane park. EDAW has been hired by the Fairmount Park Conservancy to evaluate revenue generating recreation options at Walnut Lane and Juniata Golf Courses. As part of some early research, we were directed to your organization as a possible candidate for a mountain bike recreation facility.

At your earliest convenience, can you contact me to discuss your organization and your long-term vision for PMBA? We are attempting to get a better understanding of PMBA's capacity and interest in such a facility at Walnut Lane.

Please keep in mind that we are only in the visioning stages and have made no decision/recommendation on the type of uses which should be located at Juniata or Walnut Lane.

I am located in San Francisco, Ca.

Regards,

Alexander Quinn
Director of Sustainable Economics, Americas Region EDAW
Logged
Mmmmmmmm, post ride beers
DannyC21
Bronze Member
Expert
*
Posts: 136



View Profile Email
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2008, 01:06:24 PM »
Another idea of possible revenue is advertising space.  I know it may look a little tacky, but it can generate a pretty dime.  For instance, many Little League fields rely a lot on the revenue that they get from local companies buying a spot on the home-run fence.  I'm not sure if the bike park plans call for having a fence seperating it from the trails in the park, but its just an idea and I'm sure plenty of bike shops would be interested in that kind of advertising.

Also what about possibly being able to rent out the park to licensed bike dealers?  For example, if High Roads Cycles wanted to have a party for its team and/or customers and staff, it may want to rent the park out for a few hours on Saturday to hold a bbq and ride (kind of like renting out the pavilion). 

Lastly, what about gettin large corporate interest?  I'm not too familiar with how PMBA funds events and things, but large companies (we're talking bike companies) are always looking to get there name out there.  We can write proposals to companies and see if any have interest in getting involved.  Example, I went to a high school that won seven consecutive state championships in football.  Well, Nike came a-knockin and paid for our school to build a brand new stadium and lockerroom (now it looks like my high school is Notre Dame).  The only catch, Nike has logos on different areas to advertise (I think the players wear Nike jerseys too, not sure though).  Thats an example of one sponser, but you may get a little interest from lots of companies.  Maybe Cannondale will buy $1000 of space in the park a year, maybe Santa Cruz or Jamis will also, you never know.  We would just have to make sure it doesn't go to overboard. 

Just some ideas.  I'm sure there are a lot of ways to bring in revenue without charging us to rise in it. 
Logged
Rico
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 413


ricolaa1970 ricocpa
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2008, 01:32:24 PM »
Good ideas, Dan. 

If there was a bike shop, concessions stand, etc. I know the city would probably get some sort of lease revenue for the space, but that just doesn't seem like enough.  I know the maintenance cost would be a lot lower than the golf course due to the large number of volunteers from FOW and PMBA.

We could limit the users to those that only have a trail user permit.  Obviously this is required for use of the Wiss, but not strongly enforced.  This would help enforce the permits and generate some additional revenue.  Maybe requiring a release form to be signed as part of the trail user permit application would help limit some of the liability?

Just some more ideas.
Logged
You must let nothing deter you in your quest for ALL.....No, ALL!
OTBKing
Platinum Member
Amateur
****
Posts: 83



View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 02:25:46 PM »
Press release on Walnut Lane Golf Course Meeting below:

The FPC, together with its partner the Fairmount Park Conservancy, is conducting a study of Walnut Lane Golf Course to examine current conditions and potential future uses.  The community is invited to hear a presentation on the study at a meeting on Thursday, Sept 11 at 7PM at the WB Saul High School, 7100 Henry Ave, Philadelphia, PA 19128.

Funded by the Barra Foundation, the study is considering new recreational uses and environmental improvements that will contribute to the surrounding neighborhoods.  The study consultants, EDAW, inc. will present findings and preliminary recommendations.  Comments and participation will be encouraged.  The meeting will be held in the mulit-purpose room of the main school building.

GET THE WORD OUT!!!!!
Logged
Everybody Bikes, but not everybody Mountain Bikes!
OTBKing
Platinum Member
Amateur
****
Posts: 83



View Profile Email
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 11:01:37 PM »
Juniata Press Release:

"The Fairmount Park Commission, together with its partner the Fairmount Park Conservancy, is conducting a study of Juniata Golf Course to examine current conditions and potential future uses. The Juniata community is invited to hear a presentation on the study at a meeting on Wednesday, September 10th at 7pm at the Juniata Boys and Girls Club, 1001 E. Cayuga Street, Philadelphia, PA 19124. 

Funded by the Barra Foundation, the study is considering new recreational uses and environmental improvements that will contribute to the surrounding neighborhoods.  The study consultants, EDAW, Inc. will present findings and preliminary recommendations. Comments and participation will be encouraged."
 
This may not be a skills park opportunity, but they are looking for community input, so maybe we get some new trails here.  It is always good to get our needs out there, so if you live close by, or would like to ride here, show up, and tell them what you want
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 11:11:40 PM by OTBKing » Logged
Everybody Bikes, but not everybody Mountain Bikes!
Pages: [1]
  Print