Riding Etiquette
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Kellyann
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« on: August 01, 2008, 07:57:31 PM »
This week I had two encounters with mounntain bikers that explained why some people have issues with us in the park... Now I ride and still these encounters left a bad taste in my mouth.

During the Tuesday girl ride we were riding up the long climb after Gorgas and two riders came bombing down the trails racing each other... I mean swaying in between each... bumping into each other... all at extremely high speed & almost taking me down.  There were a LOT of people on the trail & even though I was riding on the trail on a bike I thought "what f*** jerks".  Please use common sense on the trails & when approaching people SLOW DOWN!

Also today (Friday) I took Vito dog out for a run & there was a spot in very narrow single track that a rider came barreling down... I tried to go to the side as best as I could.  I was in the weeds.  The rider never even slowed down almost hit Vito & gave me a dirty look... when I asked if anyone was behind him he said  "DOES IT LOOK LIKE ANYONE IS BEHIND ME".

Now I run, ride & hike in the park & I can tell you for a fact that letting someone know that you are either A) Alone B) Last One or C) Count of people behind you is a very considerate thing to do.  Whoever the user is; they are yeilding to you and allowing you to go before they continue on there way.  Please extend them the same consideration.

***I also want to say for the most part any rider that I run into when I running/hiking/riding regardless if I know them or not are very considerate & friendly!  People just tend to remember the bad.  Please follow trail etiquette as it speaks for the entire group and many of us work very hard in building relationships with all users***
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R.A.W.
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2008, 09:30:48 PM »
Before I started to mountian bike I hiked a lot, and I hated mountian bikers.  I had a few good experiences, but the bad ones were what I remember.  From almost hitting my dog, almost hitting me, running me off the trail, you name it I had it happen (except getting hit... that's what the cat like reflexes are for  Wink).
Now that I started biking, I try to have a good interaction with everyone I pass.  A simple thank you, _ more behind, and slowing down can make all the difference.  Stop and talk to people... make them feel like we are a friendly group.  You have to work harder to get them to remember the good incounters and not think about the bad ones.
The hubby and I had 2 experiences on Wednesday b/4 the meeting... met a group of 3 guys... one commented that my bell (thanks Lou) was a great idea and that he'd be getting one soon.  They chatted for with us for a while, then took off.  That was the good one... the other guy that almost ran me over... he was the bad one!  Guess which one I talked about yesterday at work... it wasn't the first 3 guys! 

I can preach till I'm blue in the face about etiquette... but I'll stop now.... Sorry for the rant!  And thanks for reading!

Remember to ring your bells!!!
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mtrostle
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2008, 08:51:02 AM »
I've been waiting for someone to post about "Trail/Riding Etiquette". I can't believe it's taken almost and entire year or more for this discussion to come up. With the summer weather here and more users in the park equals more incidents. I figure 95% of us are decent respectable riders while the other 5% are some of the most un-educated, disrespectful assholes that everyone who encounters will remember for a long time.

I was finishing the rocky climb left of/behind Valley Green Inn the other day and as I approached the summit of the climb, 2 riders approached the opposite direction. I'm almost to the top, just need to clear the last rocky section and the one rider doesn't hesitate to jump on my line and bomb right through kicking me off to the shoulder of the trail. The other rider stops, waits for me to restart my climb to ride by while apologizing with "sorry man, he doesn't know trail etiquette". I shared a few words of how he should educate his friend, the trials are multi user and how it creates a bad situation  & so forth. I can say it wasn't in a calm voice but it wasn't as explosive as could have been.


Honestly, I think it should be integrated into all the clinics. It would only take 10 minutes and is a perfect opportunity to properly educate future riders. 
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jpearce
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2008, 09:08:50 AM »
Similar thing happened to me Tuesday on the Golf Course climb.  I started up after ringing my bell and found three guys bombing down the hill.  The guy who was heading right at me grabbed his brakes, skidded, flipped and landed in the dirt in front of me.  Hopefully he learned something, but probably not...
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 04:40:41 PM by jpearce » Logged
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dvl
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2008, 11:06:18 AM »
Quote from: mtrostle on August 02, 2008, 08:51:02 AM
Honestly, I think it should be integrated into all the clinics. It would only take 10 minutes and is a perfect opportunity to properly educate future riders. 

An excellent idea.

Assuming the clinics do not cover this, how do we go about ensuring that they do?
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 03:04:45 PM »
This is a great discussion. At the last clinic I gave a short tutorial on trail etiquette to the 25 or so riders who attended. Basically that we need to slow down for everyone that we see, biker, hiker, dog, man, women and child. If you buzz by someone carrying speed you are basically causing a user conflict, and Like Mark stated; acting like an asshole. Nobody is impressed by riders flying by them, but rather it pisses people off.

This is the reason why there are trails in the park that are closed to bikers. Years ago it was the only solution they could think of to solve the problem of people "claiming" they were almost run over by a bike. That was a long time ago, and we are more respected now. Lets show other users that we deserve that hard earned respect and slow down when you pass someone.

For most of you I'm preaching to the choir. Thanks very much to those of you who help to spread the good vibe on proper trail etiquette. It goes a loooong way, and we really appreciate it.

Now, Kel desribe to me the guy that almost ran over you and my dog....
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 04:47:29 PM »
What's that you're whistling, Kelly?  Sure sounds like "My boyfriend's back and you're gonna be in trouble"...
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Jeremy
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 04:51:04 PM »
Quote from: Lust4singletrack on August 02, 2008, 03:04:45 PM
Now, Kel desribe to me the guy that almost ran over you and my dog....

I'm 99% sure they ride a black Santa Cruz Nomad and Bullit. These 2 jerkoffs are always causing havoc on the trails. Grin
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 08:32:05 AM by Jeremy » Logged
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bonkers
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2008, 08:20:04 AM »
I had my own bad experience at the beginning of the summer w/some duschbag (is that how it's spelled?) that cut me off on a climb just past Janette. It's the one wee little incline that has a tree blocking the larger portion of the trail. I let 2 hikers w/dogs pass me coming down & we acknowledged each other. Then as I started back up I saw this guy coming fast down towards me. The guy refused to stop & kept coming at me. We had an exchange of words in front of the hikers & I was half tempted to kick him off his line when we almost collided w/our handlebars. After the exchange I was thinking that I was sorta glad that it happened in front of the hikers so they saw that not all of us are a-hole riders out there.


Maybe we should make it a point at the next clinic on the 10th that lead riders address the trail etiquette to their riders before everyone goes off on their seperate group rides? 
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Kellyann
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2008, 09:50:31 PM »
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What's that you're whistling, Kelly?  Sure sounds like "My boyfriend's back and you're gonna be in trouble"...

Now; the question is whether he is protecting me or Vito dog....
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Jeremy
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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2008, 09:57:27 PM »
Quote from: Kellyann on August 03, 2008, 09:50:31 PM
Quote
What's that you're whistling, Kelly?  Sure sounds like "My boyfriend's back and you're gonna be in trouble"...

Now; the question is whether he is protecting me or Vito dog....

Vito. You can always find a new girlfriend (or wife in my case) but to have a kick-ass dog that can rip the trails is tough to find. Grin
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RepoMan
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2008, 08:43:10 AM »
What's that old saying, "one bad apple spoils the bunch?" That holds pretty true here. People remember the bad experiences and it's pretty obvious we've all had them in the Wissahickon. I think there are always going to be jerks who won't learn and don't want to learn, but my hope is that most of the offenders just don't know and would change with a little education. I'll never forget the one guy who, years back, bombed past me as I was slowing down for a couple hikers I yelled "yield to the people!" and he yelled back "I don't give a shit!" Very nice, pal. He's the type who education won't help, but hey, he's probably pretty miserable in general so he can have fun with that.

On the other hand, I'd like to say thanks to the two guys who stopped after I ate it on the little creek crossing near Wise's Mill yesterday. Front tire slid out on a root, I hit the dirt and came up with my left pinkie sticking out at a very wrong angle. They stopped and made sure I was OK and shot the breeze a bit as I tried to set my finger back in place. That kept my mind off it for a couple minutes, so thanks for that. I know it sapped all their momentum for that steep climb and they were willing to stop anyway.
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Sweet
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2008, 05:57:45 PM »
Since everyone is venting...how about the folks who breakdown/flat and fix their bike across the width of the entire trail.  I used to think it was stupidity/arrogance about all these things that you all are describing as bad etiquette and I would tend to meet force with force.  I guess with age I realized that most of them are just oblivious to anybody else in the world using the trails, but them.  The ones who are trainable would benefit from a discussion, the others- nothing you can do about them, they just don't get it - how fun is it to bomb down a trail and have conflict with everyone you meet; not the way I would spend my ride time.

The other fun group is the sarcastic/angry middle aged women joggers.  Don't know why they are so bitter, but here is an example:  riding down towards the green by the golf course climb towards the junction in the trail.  Usually a fun trail to let it run, but a couple of joggers were in front of me so I hung a good ways back from them to the bottom of the hill.  The one woman very nastily says "most bikers call out when they want to pass" and "how many are you." When I got up to the fork in the trail, I politely told her that I was waiting to the junction so I had room to pass and it was only me.  She decided that wasn't good enough and said "you should learn what we do here in Wissahickon before you ride."  I told her I know the rules very well, that is why I was yielding to them and waiting for an appropriate place to pass and in 8 years of riding back there, I have never had someone take offense to me yielding.  The nice thing was that by not reacting to her with the same amount of venom she had, I think she was embarrassed; I know her jogging partner looked embarrassed.

I guess my point is you need to be kind of Zen with them.  You're ride will be more enjoyable and if they have any kind of self reflection, they have to realize what jerks they are being.  But born assholes generally don't change, just grow bigger, so you can't let them affect your ride.
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bonkers
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2008, 08:55:20 PM »
Totally agree Sweet.. sometimes the best thing to do is nothing. As repo put it "What's that old saying, "one bad apple spoils the bunch?" That holds pretty true here. People remember the bad experiences" which is all too true. Bikers already have a bad rap in the Wiss so anything positive we do generally goes unnoticed. Keep your cool (really hard for me to do sometimes), don't spout off more negative comments (really REALLY hard for me to do sometimes), & remember you are the ambassader to the group when this sort of thing happens. How the public sees your reaction, especially if you've got PMBA tags on your ride, is how they see the group.     
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mtrostle
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 09:54:21 PM »
Quote from: Sweet on August 04, 2008, 05:57:45 PM
I guess my point is you need to be kind of Zen with them. 

As Bruce Lee would say, "Flow like water."

Bonkers, your signature line made me laugh. Had to think for a few seconds what movie that was from.
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fishnchips
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2008, 11:43:58 AM »
I think we out to adapt the old rule of 'giving way to the rider coming up'. I see a lot of folks getting upset over that one. But personally I think we should give way to everyone. When you see a rider or other trail user coming, you ring the bell communicate and pass each other. If it's convenient for them to pull over, they do, or vice versa.

If a rider is bombing down a hill, I'm going to try and stop and get out of the way. It may be my right of way, but not for a moment I'm I going to assume the other rider is going to stop. In some cases, especially in the Wiss, it may be unsafe for them to stop. If you take the golf course hill and the one fast dh headed to LD after Demo 1, both those are really tough to stop on, so if I'm coming up I ring the bell and get ready to pull over.

Plus, some of these downs are exciting, and unless I'm doing my damnedest to make a hill, I don't mind letting the other riders enjoy the flow without breaking it up for them.

Also, I've seen riders get mad at others even when there is plenty of room for both. They figure, "I'm coming up so everyone should clear the trail entirely".  If you pretend that the rule is, "give way to everyone" you never get upset.

In the beginner clinic I would certainly tell riders that the rule is to give way to the rider coming up, but that there are gray areas to the rule and that not for a moment should they ever assume someone coming down is actually going to follow that rule.

I feel a tiny bit guilty when I see a jogger or walker immediately stop and step to the side. That's great, but I can stop too, but mostly they just assume I'm going to blow by them. I do, of course, say thank you Grin
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Kelly
mtrostle
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 11:56:08 AM »
Quote from: fishnchips on August 05, 2008, 11:43:58 AM
I do, of course, say thank you Grin

Communication is the key to the issue. Since it's a multi user trail system we all have to be talking to jogger/hiker/equestrian/mt biker. Climbing or bombing down hill with room to pass/gray areas is about speaking to the other user. Experience dictates the situation and solution. Like FishnChips said, certain areas of the park are really dangerous to slow down on in passing situations. As long as there are 2 lines open for each rider and your telling them what your intentions are, that’s half the battle. But, I’m a Nazi about manners and trail etiquette. The great thing about PMBA, and these forums, is the majority of us are all on the same page and striving for the greater cause. 
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