decisions decisions
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bonkers
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« on: June 26, 2008, 09:57:00 PM »
Ok I'm looking into getting a new XC full suspension ride for myself. I definitely want to get something lighter than my Giant (34lbs) for climbing but it has to be able to take some abuse too. 
Price wise, I'd rather stay within a budget of about a $1000, give or take a couple hundred, for a new rig so I'm definitely considering building or getting something used too. Riding style is a tad aggressive but I'm trying to change that too.
So, whatta you got?
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dieselkarl
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2008, 10:17:40 PM »
Building a bike up from a frame and parts boxes is generally the spendiest option.  Used can be a great way to go but caveat emptor - know what you're buying and who was riding it before you.  You usually forfeit any warranty since you are not the initial buyer but I know from firsthand experience that some companies will back their frames with a more generous interpretation of their warranty - Salsa and other small companies come to mind.

What's weighing down your Giant ?  Wheelsets and tires are great bang for the buck load lighteners - plus, they reduce rolling mass, not just dead weight - less effort to get the wheels turning.  Your crank/bb is also a spot where manufacturers fudge on the parts group - throwing in lower grade spec where it's not too apparent so that they can slap a nicer grade rear deraileur on to snag the sale.  Decent set of wheels - 300-600, good folding bead and or ust tires - 60-80, if not ust go stan's conversion 70 and a shimano xt crank/bb 260  So for as little as $590 to as much as just over $1000, you can probably ditch 4-6 lbs and get stiffer, faster and probably more durable parts.

Karl
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bonkers
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2008, 07:05:46 AM »
My first guess was the wheelsets & tires that are on the Giant are the culprits for weight. WTB rims & Kenda 2.35s are currently on it. My other option was to spend the $$ to swap out parts- front fork, rear shock, new wheelset, & tires to see if I could lighten it from that ways.

I remember reading a post about someone's Salsa here. Jesse maybe? In anycase, they weren't the original owner but still backed their warrenty for the frame.

Thanks Karl!
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fishnchips
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2008, 09:06:38 AM »
yep, that's right. Salsa came through
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Kelly
Lust4singletrack
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2008, 09:54:17 AM »
Does sounds a little heavy for that ride. Good advice Karl.

Getting a nice light and stiff set of wheels is huge. Just don't go too light cause they won't take any abuse, especially on our somewhat rocky trails here in PA.

When you said you wanted to change you riding style from "tad aggressive" do you want to be more or less aggressive? That should decide how beefy you want your wheels to be. Light wheels don't hold up well to aggressive riding; at least that's been my experience.

If you go all out on the wheels, what some riders do is put a beefier wheel on the back since it takes much more abuse than the front wheel. This way you can save some weight on the front and still have a rear that can handle all the logs and rocks that you may not quite get over.
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bonkers
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2008, 06:26:44 PM »
Lust, I'm trying to be a tad less aggressive.

I think I saw Kman's wheels set up like that, that's a good idea. I'll be looking into some wheelsets probably this weekend.
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Lust4singletrack
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2008, 08:06:41 PM »
Less. Got it.

Yea some pros do it that way too. The other day we rode with local pro rider and all around nice guy Harlan from Independent Fabrication. He has his ride this way with the lighter wheel on the front. Riding with him is very humbling.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 05:34:23 AM by Lust4singletrack » Logged
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dieselkarl
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2008, 11:08:38 PM »
Rob, call me at work Mon before you buy - let me see what I can do for you.

Karl
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Kman
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2008, 10:45:19 AM »


Bonkers, I think for the money you buy there are some things you would need to sacrifice on quality to get the bike you want
for the price you searching for, I can't think of too many people to steer you in the right direction than Karl.  You going to need to decide which is most important in what your searching for, you already have a good idea in your head. I brake down a  bike in basically 3 (or 4 sections), which I'm sure some may or may not agree, but you have the:
 
 -Frame

 -Suspension
 
-Components
 ----( and 4th the Wheels, which are rims hubs and tires and fall under the components category.)

So I would decide what you want to sacrifice on quality when you get the bike, relative to what you are seeking, and always assume your going to upgrade in the future when something breaks or needs to be replace. You can argue that the Frame has got to be top notch for your bike to be able to perform its best, but  on a full suspension, the  fork and shock your trying to find, you want something that isn't going to toss you over the bars when you hit a rock or bounce you off the trail, but your probably not looking for something to do 10 ft drop offs so you have some room in this area to play to help you on overall cost.Than gives you some room hopefully for components are decent and work great, (if used) then you can hit the trails and shift smooth and take climbs well.

Your the one steering your ship so you have to decide what is best for you, good luck hunting, I hope I helped you a bit.

 
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bonkers
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2008, 08:26:25 PM »
Definitely helps Kman, I think I'm starting from the wheelset & tires & going to upgrade from there. I rode Fairhills today & got really hung up on some of the climbs today. As I watched the other guys pull away for a few seconds my only thought was "DAMN THIS SUCKS!"  Grin I was grinding away in the granny gears waay too today. In any case, I'm calling Karl tomorrow & starting my search from there.
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Lust4singletrack
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2008, 08:58:12 PM »
Have fun with the research on your new parts. Always cool cause you can't help but learn somthing about your ride in the process. Good times.
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bonkers
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2008, 07:44:16 AM »
Quote from: Lust4singletrack on June 29, 2008, 08:58:12 PM
Have fun with the research on your new parts. Always cool cause you can't help but learn somthing about your ride in the process. Good times.

Interestingly L4S, there was something I just learned from this discussion & sleeping on it. Although I do want to lighten the load up on the dually I think I was trying to turn the ride into something that it's not. The bike is an all-mountain rig & I think I'm trying to turn it into an XC. I have a hardtail for that. Kman hit a good point about sacrificing some quality on the bike with switching components. I can still switch out some components on the Giant but now I think I don't want to lose what the bike was really built for.
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Lust4singletrack
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2008, 10:44:59 AM »
Yea good point.

Just for the sake of swapping stories:
I just made my all mountain/freeride bike heavier (it's about 36-37lbs now). I had a DHX air and swapped it out for a DHX coil because coil suspension just feel better than air, and since the bike is built more for going down than up I'm not as concerned with how long it takes me to get up a hill. I ride this bike most of the time and when I do jump on a light bike I feel like a rocket; at least on the climbs anyway. On the downs I want my heavy bike back!

I still think getting a dope ass wheelset is a not a bad idea. I'm trying to build a new wheelset myself right now. I'm drooling over the Industry Nine hubs, and will probably do a custom build. Have not decided on rim choice yet.
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Tom Coyle
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2008, 11:47:07 AM »
Hey bonkers
I feel your pain on the climbs.
Watching you climb gave on your bike gave me hope that I can climb w/ my bike also.
I have the same bike but a 08 model ( Reign x2).

You could switch parts to make it a more XC ride than all mountain.
I think that the frame could be set up either way.
I definitely like the wheel set and crank up grade maybe even a fork upgrade
this could change the geometry to more XC.

As far as buying look at the giant trance X2 can handle most everything we ride
I have seen these at shops for around $1700.00 or less
Good luck
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2008, 03:18:18 PM »
Rob, do you absolutely need a FS for the racing you want to do? You have a nice hardtail, what about just upgrading the fork on that, and maybe any components that you wanted to improve and race with that?
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bonkers
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2008, 05:15:25 PM »
Quote from: fightnut on June 30, 2008, 03:18:18 PM
Rob, do you absolutely need a FS for the racing you want to do? You have a nice hardtail, what about just upgrading the fork on that, and maybe any components that you wanted to improve and race with that?


that was actually the revelation I had after sleeping on it.  Grin
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bonkers
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2008, 08:08:13 PM »
Quote from: Lust4singletrack on June 30, 2008, 10:44:59 AM

since the bike is built more for going down than up I'm not as concerned with how long it takes me to get up a hill. I ride this bike most of the time and when I do jump on a light bike I feel like a rocket; at least on the climbs anyway. On the downs I want my heavy bike back!


This is just what I finally hit me. I think I just needed to wait till the rest of my head caught up to my impulsiveness before I started buying everything. I'm still gonna look into the new wheelset for the dually & slowly but surely upgrade some parts on it. For my other plan with entering races, I'll use my hardtail & not worry so much about smoothing out all the bumps. Definitely makes sense too, I always felt faster after riding the heavier rig for so long & then jumping on a 25lb hardtail. 
As I've said with mountain biking, you just become an addict & want everything!! lol.. 
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Lev
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2008, 10:55:16 PM »
hey bonkers, let me know if you're still looking around. I have an excellent '05 Cannondale Prophet I'm trying to sell. The bike has been well cared for, and it is super versatile as a solid climber and descender. It's not necessarily a race bike, but it's certainly something you could spend a whole day on having fun. I'm about 5'10" for reference. Let me know if you're interested.
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fishnchips
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2008, 01:14:56 AM »
yo Lev, if Bonkers isn't game I might be. What's the fork and shock on it? Tks
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Kelly
bonkers
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« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2008, 06:49:00 AM »
Quote from: Lev on July 23, 2008, 10:55:16 PM
hey bonkers, let me know if you're still looking around. I have an excellent '05 Cannondale Prophet I'm trying to sell. The bike has been well cared for, and it is super versatile as a solid climber and descender. It's not necessarily a race bike, but it's certainly something you could spend a whole day on having fun. I'm about 5'10" for reference. Let me know if you're interested.

I have to pass on that one Lev, but thanks for the offer. I'm only about 5'4" so frame maybe a tad large for me. I am still looking but I need to sell hardtails off before considering anything.
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Lev
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« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2008, 07:53:50 AM »
Quote from: fishnchips on July 24, 2008, 01:14:56 AM
yo Lev, if Bonkers isn't game I might be. What's the fork and shock on it? Tks

The fork is a Lefty 140 SPV (killer fork IMO), and the shock is a Manitou Swinger 3-Way.

You're more than welcome to give it a test ride any time. I live in the Manayunk area.

I'll get some pics up here shortly...
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Dmitri
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« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2008, 09:01:56 AM »
Quote from: bonkers on June 29, 2008, 08:26:25 PM
As I watched the other guys pull away for a few seconds my only thought was "DAMN THIS SUCKS!"  Grin I was grinding away in the granny gears waay too today.

Rob, not to rub in the obvious, but... Maybe it's the engine not the rig?... I ride low 20's rigid SS, should be pretty darn light and super efficient on the climbs right? But when I ride with Tom, I'm always humbled by him staying righ ton my wheel or even ahead of me on his 35+ DH rig... Hmmm... Something to think about.

It's also a lot about riding style. Having gears and "bailing" into the granny too soon too often will slow you down and limit your progress at getting faster as well. I'm not saying to ditch the gears for SS, but rather try not to sit down in granny too long, instead be more aggressive, stand up, "get over the hump" and keep the speed and momentum up.

Whether back when I had gears or now on SS, I'm always surprised how difficult and painful it is to slowly grind up the hill when one feels tired and weak, but if, despite the fatigue and pain, you make an extra effort, stand up and kick it up a notch, "get on top of the gear" get the speed, momentum and cadance back up, all of the sudden you'd be at the top of the hill right on your riding buddy's tail.

It is a little counter intuitive, but going up hill faster is actually easier. Yeah, it takes a little more effort at first, but in the long run, it is easier. Think of a car, will you go up the hill in 5th gear at 15 mph? Probably not, it will probably stall or be really unhappy, but the same hill at 50 in the same 5th gear is a breeze. Yeah, but the top it might drop the speed down to 40, but you're at the top still far faster and easier than at 15 mph.

If you're pushing yourself harder and going uphill faster, it's a little more leg burn at the start of the hill, but the pain doesn't last as long, as you're at the top faster.

Phew, that was too long.

All that said, I second Karl on the wheels being the first and most rewarding spot for the upgrades.
Then start with the "low hanging fruit", meaning the parts which will yield the most gain for the least investment. Research the prices and weights of the parts. Not the claimed by manufacturers weights tho, the real weights. Use this weight weenie site or other forums like MTBR.com

good luck.

dz
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2008, 10:38:06 AM »
Totally agree it's the engine & not the rig- although riding at FC w/an XC rig over the weekend may have added more push towards the rig  Smiley. I agree the hill climbs w/momentum are better when taken faster & I have to just adjust & pick up the extra weight of my AM bike. I also agree w/what Tom said about it too, I like the heavier ride for control on the downs. I'm staring at some components now to switch out.. wheelset & fork being researched now.
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2008, 10:39:19 AM »
Quote from: R.A.W. on July 24, 2008, 10:38:06 AM
Totally agree it's the engine & not the rig- although riding at FC w/an XC rig over the weekend may have added more push towards the rig  Smiley. I agree the hill climbs w/momentum are better when taken faster & I have to just adjust & pick up the extra weight of my AM bike. I also agree w/what Tom said about it too, I like the heavier ride for control on the downs. I'm staring at some components now to switch out.. wheelset & fork being researched now.

Sorry, that was supposed to be from bonkers... tried to post for him and it didn't work.
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Lev
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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2008, 11:11:35 PM »
As promised, here are some pics (this goes for any interested folks out there. I'm trying to get about $1200. Great ride for these parts)





Let me know if you have any questions. I'll prbly put this up on Craigslist some time soon. Cheers!

Lev
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fishnchips
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2008, 11:45:46 PM »
lev, be sure to post it in the classifieds. 

I'm actually looking or something with a thru axel fork, something burly and not breakable during aggressive heavy weight XC riding.
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Kelly
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