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next tm target areas
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next tm target areas
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Topic: next tm target areas (Read 1126 times)
jomissa
Platinum Member
Expert
Posts: 140
next tm target areas
«
on:
June 23, 2008, 11:14:49 AM »
hey all.
i know this has been discussed about the golf course but i have a question.
bells mill indian side enterance had a sign up saying the trail is being closed for work. i never really thought of it as that bad. whats the deal with that location? anyone know?
also, i saw a bunch of blue flags on a rocky downhill, same side, on the section leading to the rocky climb to the lookout before decending to valley green. say it aint so. its one of the only ricky sections left in the park thats a challenge to climb. is that a target zone?
thanks.
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Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
Posts: 1198
Energy is always flowing. Ride it.
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #1 on:
June 23, 2008, 12:01:00 PM »
I understand your concerns and I share them. Anythin that channels water and erodes terribly with each rain storm must be adjusted to stop the erosion. It's bad for the health of the park; kills trees, pollutes the creek and kills the aquatic life, as well as pollutes our drinking water which a good percentage of comes from the creek in wiss.
Preserving the health of the park must take priority. This is why it's so important for us to be part of the process, so we can help keep the challenging aspect of the park in tact and stop the erosion that is hurting it so badly. None of us want super smooth trails with no challenging climbs, but if we don't let our needs be known and get involved then it could end up that way because many of the stakeholders in this effort do not know or understand there are many users like us who have a need for challenging terrain. If you are part of this club then you are already going in the right direction to help. Many trail runners seek the same challenging terrain so we are not the only user group with these concerns.
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Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
dannmer
Platinum Member
Newbie
Posts: 19
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #2 on:
June 23, 2008, 12:48:33 PM »
The meeting listed below already took place but I think that the signs you saw are referring to the Early Implementation project. The trail being modified in this project is in obvious need of repair. The fact that parts of it are only about a foot or two above the level of the stream should be a dead giveaway that the trail needs some work. It is my understanding that these low lying parts of the trail will be moved closer to the hillside and raised considerably above stream level. I think the initial rocky portion of the trail after entering from Bell's Mill Road will not be altered significantly.
If you are concerned with the way the trails are changing, you should attend some of the FOW public meetings and tell them about your concerns. Volunteer for the work days and you can influence how something gets rebuilt. However, you must understand one thing; the overriding principle guiding the redesign of the trails is their sustainability, not whether they will be fun for your particular riding style. The trails need to be sustainable because the city/FOW does not have the money to rebuild them every time we have a major storm. Unsustainable trails are easily eroded, the soil washes into the streams, compromising water quality and degrading the habitat for fish and other aquatic creatures.
Unsustainable trails channel water directly into the streams during storms. This, in conjunction with storm water coming from the surrounding residential areas causes immense damage to the park during a major storm event. This damage costs a lot of money to repair. This is money that can't be used for capital improvements. The Philadelphia Water Department and FOW are working to improve storm water management in the residential areas outside the park by encouraging people to use rain barrels, changing landscaping practices, building retention basins, and other practices.
The ultimate goal of the STI project is to have trails that require little maintenance, have a minimal impact on the natural environment of the park, and are enjoyable for a wide variety of park users. While I would welcome a complete transformation of the trails to meet the only the needs of mountain biking, it is not going to happen. I have participated in most of the trail work events in the last few years and we have always tried to preserve the technical sections whenever possible. The Kitchen's Lane work done last year kept the rocky area and actually introduced another short rocky section. I don't think that it got easier to ride the trail. Parts of it are less rocky but have more curves in the trail. In time, rocks will come to the surface and the newly cut trails will be rockier. If the Wissahickon trails aren't challenging enough for you, then try riding a different type of bike in the park. I love riding my cross bike in the Wiss and the fixed gear MTB is also a lotta fun.
"FOW will host a public meeting to discuss the Early implementation of the Sustainable Trails Initiative (STI), set to begin in late June, 2008, and continue through December. The meeting will take place on Wednesday, June 18, 2008, at the Chestnut Hill Library (8711 Germantown Ave.) from 6:30 to 8:30 p.m.
The project to be discussed entails complete reconstruction, partial re-routing, and replanting of the lower trail on the East (Chestnut Hill) side of Wissahickon Creek between Bells Mills Road and Thomas Mill Road (the covered bridge). In conjunction with the work on the trail itself, and plant work along the trail corridor, prototypes of the new trail blazing, trail signage, and trail head kiosks will be installed, a handicap accessible parking place created in the lot opposite the trail head, and an improved handicap accessible trail section from the Bells Mills Road to the Pavilion will be created. "
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Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
Posts: 1198
Energy is always flowing. Ride it.
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #3 on:
June 23, 2008, 01:14:56 PM »
Well said Dan. Except the part about riding the Fixie. You have issues.
If you'd like to read more, all these in depth details can be found on Friends of the Wissahickon website.
www.fow.org
«
Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 01:37:11 PM by Lust4singletrack
»
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Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
jomissa
Platinum Member
Expert
Posts: 140
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #4 on:
June 23, 2008, 09:42:39 PM »
can i ever get a response on this board anymore that does not make me feel like a third grader being talked to by a teacher? I think the preaching is a bit much. Thanks for the info anyway. As I've said before....some of us can not attend the meetings or the TMD's so we donate with $$. Admittedly, I've not renewed my membership. Dont preach to me about sustainability. i asked a simple question and got a complex answer. Sometimes a KISS is the way to go. when one person feel this way its usually not isolated.
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Lou
PMBA Moderator
Addict
Posts: 912
a.k.a. dirtmerchant
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #5 on:
June 23, 2008, 10:37:15 PM »
Jomissa, I have been biting my tounge up to this point but I gotta chime in. You asked a "simple" question to a topic that there are NO simple answers. You were not being preached to, you were simply being educated. I know it sucks to be ill informed, but if you want to know what the REAL sitution is within the Wiss park, you need to educate yourself. It is VERY difficult to explain this to hard core bikers who dont have the time to educate themselves, and we are trying so please bear with us. PLEASE also remember that we are VOLUNTEERS and we dont get paid. We are doing this because we genuinely care about the Wiss and we are trying our best to work with the powers to have these trails open and fun for us. We really need your participation and/or money. So please dont stop contributing because your are ill informed or frustrated becasue you dont understand what is happening. There are plenty of us who will share what we have learned with you. I know you are an educated person so I know you understand what I am talking about, and you are proffesional enough to be a man.
Thanks a lot dude. Lou
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Mmmmmmmm, post ride beers
Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
Posts: 1198
Energy is always flowing. Ride it.
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #6 on:
June 24, 2008, 08:16:16 AM »
Quote
can i ever get a response on this board anymore that does not make me feel like a third grader being talked to by a teacher?
I'm sorry you feel this way.
I did not explain things to try and make you feel like a third grader (those were the days). I'm actually glad that you are asking questions and that you're interested in what's going on. I feel it's important for our members to be educated about the health and well being of the park that we all love, and that's what I'm trying to do by giving you info on why we have to work on the trails that are eroding.
Generally when we hear a complaint or question like "why are you working on that technical climb? Leave it alone" it's because the riders perception is that we're "sanitizing the trails". I am strongly against sanitizing the trails, but I am very strongly for the trails being sustainable. It's give and take.
You are not looking for a long drawn out explanation but a simple answer to your question. This is what I attempted to provide you with but it's hard because frankly many users are totally oblivious to what is actually happening in the park. There are still some who believe that bikes are the ones that cause the erosion. There are some who want us off the trails. This is why your membership is extremely important to all of us, not just us guys who are running things but to all the other like minded members like yourself. We all must stand together here. Hopefully you will leave this thread more eduacted about what is happening behind the scenes, and you can spread this info to other users in your travels.
Next time an uneducated user starts ranting about "why are they working on this technical section" you have the power to let them know the what and the why.
I'd also like to touch on something that Dan said below
Quote
While I would welcome a complete transformation of the trails to meet the only the needs of mountain biking, it is not going to happen.
This is a concept that I've never heard before! I think it's important to know this is not what PMBA is about. We are interested in improving the experience of all users equally. However the idea that certain trails and features will be there designed for bikes is not that far off so don't get too discouraged. PMBA is working very hard to let it be known that we are a very important, responsible and viable user group, and it's working well. Many people are starting to realize that mountainbiking is an extremely positive form of recreation, like many other sports, that can be enjoyed by people of all walks of life. Ever take notice of how much space in the park has been clear cut to put in a baseball feild? How bout the golf course? Puts it in perspective. It's not as far off as you think.
Stick with us. The future is bright.
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Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
Kman
PMBA Moderator
Addict
Posts: 524
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #7 on:
June 24, 2008, 09:10:38 AM »
It is a boatload of information at one time, we have done extensive research and educated ourselves on the subject for the past couple years, and we are agressive in our approach of sharing the information with others, as we are with building better trails for all users of the park.
Enjoy the trails!
«
Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 10:20:18 AM by Kman
»
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We ride one speed. Full.
jomissa
Platinum Member
Expert
Posts: 140
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #8 on:
June 25, 2008, 03:04:08 PM »
...about the manhood comment ill take that one up with you when i see you.
so...whats up with the blue flags? is that a target area?
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Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
Posts: 1198
Energy is always flowing. Ride it.
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #9 on:
June 25, 2008, 03:53:42 PM »
Yes it is.
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Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
Durb
Platinum Member
Expert
Posts: 163
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #10 on:
June 25, 2008, 06:35:34 PM »
I like that section too but it is completely washed out after every rain so I see the need to do something. There are some rocks starting to poke out of some of the other new sections, which is a good sign. Maybe it can be re-routed with some good switchbacks to add some speed and flow.
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jomissa
Platinum Member
Expert
Posts: 140
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #11 on:
June 25, 2008, 08:39:36 PM »
that would be cool. also saw the article in the local today about the STI phase 1 work on bells mill section etc...
we shall see. it is what it is...
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Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
Posts: 1198
Energy is always flowing. Ride it.
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #12 on:
June 25, 2008, 09:04:24 PM »
One technique I would like us to use more is to "texture" the trail more. In lamens terms; manmade rock gardens. Instead of the rock gardens that are created by precious soil washing away. Rocks need to be buried about 3/4 of the way into the ground so they don't move. So they need to be big rocks. It's hard work, which is probably why we have not done too much of it. We have done it though and it works quite well.
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Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
fishnchips
Platinum Member
Addict
Posts: 757
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #13 on:
June 25, 2008, 11:46:30 PM »
Tom you took the words right out of my mouth. I just had a long phone conversation about this and my one major concern is that our current 'style' is already looking generic.
When we did Demo II Rich had Jamie and I "pepper" an area of the trail with buried rocks. My thought is that we need to totally take peppering to the next level. If the sub trail is sustainable why not have some character on top? Plants, brambles, sticks, leaves, logs, and most importantly, some rocks. I could even see loose rocks being used in places on top of a sustainable trail that may fall off the side or work their way to the bottom over time, but then we can carry them up and scatter them for next season.
I realize ideally a new trail would close for a year and set in, and we don't have that luxury. So maybe we can speed up the process?
And not every step rise has to be linear across the trail. Sure we need water bars, but we could shake up some of the formation directions. We could even bury some 'root' size branches and such to emulate real roots. We need a trail artist to fake erosion over a sustainable trail!
In a perfect world we'd make the new trail exactly like it is now, but on a sustainable base. Unfortunately with many of our previous projects it looks like we are laying trail carpet !
Say "NO" to trail carpet !
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Kelly
jomissa
Platinum Member
Expert
Posts: 140
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #14 on:
June 26, 2008, 10:01:52 AM »
the white clay concept of different lines is pretty cool in the skills section. rocks to the right, boards to the left, smooth in the center. gives people lots of fun options. dont think wiss trails are wide enough and you all probably thought of tht already anway, right?
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Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
Posts: 1198
Energy is always flowing. Ride it.
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #15 on:
June 26, 2008, 10:39:49 AM »
Not only did we think of it, Lou took the time (when he's not drilling for oil with his head) to go down there and show it to folks from FPC and FOW. They were impressed. Rest assured we are not as dumb as we look. Good times.
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Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"
Tom Coyle
DrSaw
Gold Member
Expert
Posts: 275
I miss Lou
«
Reply #16 on:
June 29, 2008, 06:39:00 AM »
He would be great, outspoken, and assertive on this post. Can someone teach him to type as a lefty? I am sure he has learned other tasks using that hand
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What hill?
Dmitri
Platinum Member
Addict
Posts: 852
Re: next tm target areas
«
Reply #17 on:
July 01, 2008, 12:21:19 PM »
Jomisa,
One more note about why the section between Bells Mill and Indian were selected for EI (Early Implementation) of STI, is that there are springs in the hill side. If you noticed there are many section where the water is flowing over the "slick rock" year round. That is a serious danger factor, not only making the rocks slipery during the summer, but making them very icy and super dangerous during winter.
The plan, as I was explained by Dave Danennberg, is to preserve the rocky texture and nature of those sections, but building a rocky overpass in one spot to gove over the flow of water and to place a large rock line drainage in another to re-route the flow around the "slick rock"
Also, as it's been mentioned in other low areas close to the creek level, the trail needs to be re-routed as it gets flooded and damaged every rain and stays wet too long.
I will just second, third, 34,529-th that the major reason for PMBA existence and involvement with all the trail maintenance is to influence and educate both ways, our own mountain biking constituence, and the people in powers about the needs and interests of different user groups and be able to introduce and preserve where possible our "preferred trails or trail features". So far we feel that we have been successful at walking the fine lin eof the compromise between preserving fun and technical features and re-building the trails in sustainable way.
Please, believe us when we say that a lot of people who draw and approve the plans, such STI (btw, these plans will go forward and happen whether we like it or not) are a lot more open to out input and know now a lot more about the interests and needs of mountain bikers that they did a year or two ago, before PMBA came into existence. We are hoping to affect the STI enough to maintain and preserve as much as possible the "value" of the trials for MTBers.
Phew, this was long. I hope not too preachy and not to "teacher-speak"
dz
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I crash therefore I am!
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