Hunting: kill sites
Philadelphia Mountain Biking Association - Forums
*
 
Pages: [1] 2
« previous next »
  Print  
Author Topic: Hunting: kill sites  (Read 2074 times)
halfLoop
Platinum Member
Amateur
****
Posts: 89



View Profile Email
« on: March 11, 2008, 10:59:04 AM »
I was riding demo1 last night from VG to Wise mill (was slippery in few spots, took forbidden back) and crossed over.  On the slight climb by the apartments, I spot a one deer and then I see there are 6 of them in the field between apartments and wise mill.  I'm thinking, wow I've not seen ANY deer in like a whole month.  Then I see there are all eating corn or some yellow feed that's been laid out for them.

I'm wondering how many kill sites they set up around the park.  Definitely remove antlers and bushy tail when riding near 7901 apartments!!
Logged
Chuck U
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 274


ChuckUni
View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 11:17:42 AM »
That's just so they can drink beer and shoot deer from the balcony.....
Logged
fishnchips
Platinum Member
Addict
****
Posts: 815



View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2008, 11:46:32 AM »
I don't have a problem with eradicating the problem deer (though of course I'd rather they use contraception or move them than just kill them).

However, I am totally against the use of high power weapons anywhere near where people live. I'm not a ballistics expert, but I did spend six years in ordnance and I've fired a lot of weapons. Plus I've witnessed and participated in a lot of night firing with tracer rounds. There is one thing that is a fact; you can't always predict what a bullet will do.

The sharp shooter may shoot perfectly 999 times in a thousand, but that one time he makes a mistake, or the one time the bullet does something out of the ordinary, well, it's going to ricochet, and it's going to fly, and the shooter will have no control over it where it goes.

So the fact that they are laying out a killing field in that location is just outrageous! There's not one direction that is safe. You have the apartments on one side, Henry Ave on the other, and Wises Mill Rd., with VG patrons and employees coming in and out at all hours.

Plus you know when the hunter starts taking shots, he maybe gets one or two before they start scampering. But he's not going to want to settle for one or two, so he's going to be taking uncontrolled shots while the deer are moving off. This is pure speculation of course, but anyone stupid enough to set up in that location is sure to be taking other risks too.

Bows maybe, but high powered rifles, no way. I think FOW is making a big mistake by supporting any high powered weapon usage in the park.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 11:55:43 AM by fishnchips » Logged
Kelly
Chuck U
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 274


ChuckUni
View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2008, 11:56:11 AM »
Are they using rifles?  Can't even use them in DE for that reason.  A shot gun would be pretty safe, but might freak out people that hear it.
Logged
fishnchips
Platinum Member
Addict
****
Posts: 815



View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 12:06:23 PM »
I'm going off what I remember them saying a few years back, that they had hired a sharp shooter. And I'm assuming the sharp shooter is using a rifle. He'd have to be super close with a shotgun I reckon? Though I guess it depends on the round. Either way, it's not something they should be doing at any hour in a popular city park.

I'm also a bit in shock because I often driven right there late at night to walk my dogs along Wises Mill, and I park by that gate. You can be sure I won't be doing that for a while.
Logged
Kelly
Chuck U
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 274


ChuckUni
View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2008, 12:13:31 PM »
Shotgun = pretty close
Bow = really close

My guess is something along those lines (don't know).  Deer in the part aren't that scared of people, so it would make it easy.  Especially setting up a feed area.
Logged
mtrostle
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 254



View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2008, 01:02:38 PM »
Warning: Nerd Alert, If you continue to read you may think I’m a geek!!! Shocked

A lot of variables when deciding what type of caliber and ammunition to shoot a deer. Any type of round will possibly ricochet if it hits a rock. Just simple physics.

A .22 caliber shot can travel up to a mile on a clear day. A 12 gauge slug (smooth bore shotgun) can travel up to 500 feet.

But, your standard hunting round isn’t an armor piercing round that's going to zip right through flesh. They're designed to "mushroom" upon impact and tumble inside a body cavity, creating as much damage as possible. You can have an exit wound, depending distance and angle of the shot, by that point the velocity is reduced.

I'd assume they're shooting at a close range. It's night time and they have to be using some type of thermal imaging to get a clear line of sight for the shot. If so, they're more than likely using a lower grain in the shot. I'd also assume they're shooting from an elevated position (tree stand) and they're shooting down into the ground and the valley, not from rim to rim. They have to be aware of the background, where they shot is more than likely going to go if they miss or it exits the body. With the baited spots the shooter has more control of the surroundings. 

This isn't the type of situation where Johnny Redneck from Pennsyltucky waited all year, to hunt 12 days, to blow his load on a herd of deer. This isn't a scenario of "If it's brown it's down". They probably take a few deer a night, stretched over 30+ days equals a successful cull, eliminating the pressure to take as more deer in a short period of time.


By law, in Pa you're allowed to hunt with in 300 feet (100 yards)  of a residence, but this isn't really hunting season.
Logged
Keep the rubber side down.........
fishnchips
Platinum Member
Addict
****
Posts: 815



View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2008, 02:17:42 PM »
I realize it's a slim chance, but if one of those bullets glances off a rock anything could happen, and it wouldn't matter what the bullet was made out of. There's no way every shot will be perfectly controlled. Also, we are talking less than 100yds from those apartments.

This has been going on for years, but I assumed it was taking place deeper into the woods. It just brings up a whole bunch of questions? Do they put the feed out the night before? Was the hunter already in the tree stand while bikers and trail users were nearby? Or does he try to sneak up the tree stand while the deer are feeding?

The location is everything. Why there? So you can just pull your truck up and start shooting? I bet you anything no tree stand was being used in that area either. It just sounds like laziness and convenience to do it there, and that does not bode well for any other aspect of the procedure.
Logged
Kelly
DrSaw
Gold Member
Expert
***
Posts: 329



View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2008, 05:47:35 PM »
I am a shooter and I reload my own ammo, both metalic and shotgun. I also participate in competition combat shooting, and have done alot of 100 to 200 shooting with a high-power .22, or a .223 AR-15 as most people know it as. So I get my 2 cents here.

They have hired a sharpshooter from New England area as a read a few years back (Maybe 10). If you notice sometime, there is salt-lick along in the woods, as the deer are driven to that. I am sure with the amount of non-NRA members in the diverse cultural area we have, numerous steps have been taken into account for safety.

I am sure the hunter knows his BACKROUND, or what is behind his target. And up to 100 yards, any skilled marksman can hit an target within 1/2 to 1 inch accuracy. With a night-vision scope, the bait, and probably being in a tree stand, UNLIKELY stray rounds are going to hit the soft ground to where the deer ar grazing, not a rocky backdrop. Plus, if he is using a silencer, that slows the velocity of the round, thus letting it travel less if a non-hit. And as mentioned before, the round probably is not a FMJ (Full Metal Jacket), but an expanding bullet that will extremely deform once it hits something. I.E: If it hits a rock by some remote chance, it isn't going to travel very far because it has become very deformed.

The hunter probably does not operate during a windy night, and as I read, does most of it around 1 or 2am, when you really do have the least amount of "friendlies" around.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 05:59:07 PM by DrSaw » Logged
What hill?
dirtmerchant
PMBA Moderator
Addict
*****
Posts: 990



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2008, 10:28:42 PM »
Those poor little deers! Ummm, where do we go to get some vension?!?!?!??  Cool
Logged
Mmmmmmmm, post ride beers
Rico
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 424


ricolaa1970 ricocpa
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2008, 11:10:43 PM »
"Imagine you're a deer. You're prancing along. You get thirsty. You spot a little brook. You put your little deer lips down to the cool, clear water - BAM. A fuckin' bullet rips off part of your head. Your brains are lying on the ground in little bloody pieces. Now I ask ya, would you give a fuck what kind of pants the son-of-a-bitch who shot you was wearing? "

I love that from My Cousin Vinny.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 11:19:59 PM by RicoCPA » Logged
You must let nothing deter you in your quest for ALL.....No, ALL!
jpearce
Platinum Member
Addict
****
Posts: 523


jpearce@dgapartners.com
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2008, 07:36:29 AM »
I'm nominating Neil for PMBA Sergeant at Arms. 

And Rico - your delivery isn't nearly as compelling as Marisa Tomei wearing that little nightgown...
Logged
We do these things not because they are easy but because they are hard.
fishnchips
Platinum Member
Addict
****
Posts: 815



View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2008, 09:16:52 AM »
DrSaw, mtrostle,
For all we know now perhaps they were just doing a population study in that area. So I may be making assumptions as to what this guy is doing wrong, but you are both making assumptions as to what he is doing right.

If this was a hunt, there is no way to say that location is safe. It's impossible, and using that location indicts the whole process. That one decision tells me that this is Johnny Redneck from Pennsyltucky.

Soft ground where the animals are grazing? You've got to be kidding? You've been on TMD and you know this park has no shortage of rocks. In that section bedrock is exposed everywhere, not to mention the old building foundations and waste. That whole area has been used as a dump.

I'm sure the families that live in those apartments would go apesiht if they knew what was taking place just outside. There's 100 other safe locations in the park, and if halfloop had spotted the lured deer in one of them we wouldn't be having this discussion.

On a side note, anyway PMBA can get some of this Wissy venison for Jan to smoke up at the RitV?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 09:20:48 AM by fishnchips » Logged
Kelly
mtrostle
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 254



View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2008, 10:09:13 AM »
Quote from: fishnchips on March 12, 2008, 09:16:52 AM
So I may be making assumptions as to what this guy is doing wrong, but you are both making assumptions as to what he is doing right.

Well, there it is, we're all guilty of making assumptions..............

I find it hard to believe that FOW doesn't have a large notice on their website stating the Deer Cull. I possibly overlooked it on their website, but it shouldn't be hard to locate. Other than the Notice on our website, and the conversations here, that's all I've heard to date.

I do have faith in FOW and their selection process for a certified sharp shooter. That being said, I honestly believe you're more likely to get shot in Kiladelphia by a random stray bullet than a shot ricocheting  off of bedrock.

Quote from: fishnchips on March 12, 2008, 09:16:52 AM
I'm sure the families that live in those apartments would go apesiht if they knew what was taking place just outside.

I completely agree. If it does appear to be an unsafe location or just a location in question, then we should be asking FOW what's going on and the plan that was filed by the sharp shooter.

Quote from: fishnchips on March 12, 2008, 09:16:52 AM
On a side note, anyway PMBA can get some of this Wissy venison for Jan to smoke up at the RitV

Had I known anyone would have been interested in some venison I would have keep some of my deer. Sorry guys, next year I'll save some meat.
Logged
Keep the rubber side down.........
halfLoop
Platinum Member
Amateur
****
Posts: 89



View Profile Email
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2008, 10:34:13 AM »
I was finishing up a ride last night and exiting at Gorgas.  It's dark and I see some yellow/greenish reflection approaching me and I'm thinking it's a cat or some small animal.  THen I see it's some dude jogging and it's his sneakers reflective tape catching my light. Apparently he's just coming into the park and it's just about 8:00 pm.  I say 'Hi' as we pass but he's got an Ipod or something...then as an afterthought I want to mention the 'hunt' to him so I stop and yell back but he's gone around the corner already.

I'm mentioning this since just to point out that I guess there are some people who venture into the park either unaware of the hunt or ambivolent about it (probaby unaware).  He had no light or anything; at least his tee shirt was white I think and the earphones Grin
Logged
Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
*****
Posts: 1315


Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"

tgunz75@aol.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2008, 04:03:15 PM »
Ambivolent. For sure.
Logged
"Trails help humans make sense of a world increasingly dominated by pavement. They allow us to come more closely in touch with our natural surroundings, to soothe our psyches, to challenge our bodies, and to practice ancient skills"
DrSaw
Gold Member
Expert
***
Posts: 329



View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2008, 08:53:09 PM »
A trained hunter or shooter knows the difference between a runner, MTB'r, and even a dog. If anyone with any sense made this decision, then we don't have a wiskey drinkin', stupid hunter out there.

I probably feel safer biking in the Wissy during curfew hours than strolling Ridge ave running errands at the same time.

And I definitely have less fear about a deer going through my windshield on Henry ave because of the hunt.

And yes, I am am MTB'r and a card carrying member of the NRA. All shooters are not rednecks; we are professionals, doctors, accountants, etc. 

Do you think all hyper-liberal residents in the outlying areas of the Wissy would ALLOW anything but perfection when it came to picking the correct marksman?
Logged
What hill?
pahearn
Gold Member
Expert
***
Posts: 170



View Profile Email
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2008, 09:34:49 PM »
FWIW, it was my understanding that the method used is bow and not rifle. Spot any stands near the feeding?

-pete
Logged
Wot no bike?
Lust4singletrack
The trail/ tool guy
PMBA Moderator
Jedi
*****
Posts: 1315


Keep trails friendly. Go by slow and say "Hello"

tgunz75@aol.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2008, 10:02:42 PM »
Im getting scared
Logged
"Trails help humans make sense of a world increasingly dominated by pavement. They allow us to come more closely in touch with our natural surroundings, to soothe our psyches, to challenge our bodies, and to practice ancient skills"
Kman
PMBA Moderator
Addict
*****
Posts: 560



View Profile Email
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2008, 11:18:59 PM »


Yeah I agree....Marisa Tomei  is HOT in "My Cousin Vinny"....


 Tongue
Logged
We ride one speed.  Full!
Fish
Platinum Member
Amateur
****
Posts: 80


-Steve H.

sjharris252
View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2008, 11:26:00 PM »
I heard he uses a rifle with silencer and shoots at close range.

Then again.. nobody has ever seen him.... he's like Colonel Flag.   He comes and goes like "the wind!"
Logged
When in doubt.... .always ride.
fishnchips
Platinum Member
Addict
****
Posts: 815



View Profile Email
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2008, 11:47:11 PM »
I think the "hyper-liberal residents in the outlying areas of the Wissy" have no idea deer are being hunted less than 100yds from a block of apartments. If they did they'd be all over this like stink on deer crap.

It doesn't matter how you shake it, the choice of that location is a monumental mistake, if just in appearance alone.

And you're debating with someone on your side; I firmly believe in the right to bare arms and I support the culling of deer. What I don't support the brainless decision to hunt in that location; the lack of signs and all the other issues aside.

If you think about it, this decision (if it actually happened) could easily put the future of all Wissahickon hunts in jeopardy. So either you agree it's a poor choice or you're essentially against the deer being culled  Tongue
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 12:06:29 AM by fishnchips » Logged
Kelly
Chuck U
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 274


ChuckUni
View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2008, 11:56:53 PM »
Wink
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 12:02:59 AM by Chuck U » Logged
Rico
Platinum Member
Expert
****
Posts: 424


ricolaa1970 ricocpa
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2008, 09:05:20 AM »
Hey Chuck, how you coming along with those TPS reports?
Logged
You must let nothing deter you in your quest for ALL.....No, ALL!
DrSaw
Gold Member
Expert
***
Posts: 329



View Profile Email
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2008, 09:06:46 AM »
From FOW:

In the fall of 2000, FPC convinced the State Legislature to pass a bill that required the Pennsylvania Game Commission to issue a sharpshooter permit to the City of Philadelphia within 30 days of application. In addition, interference with the cull was declared a felony.

If the PGC is involved, you can be ASSURED safety is the number ONE priority.
Logged
What hill?
Sweet
Silver Member
Newbie
**
Posts: 12



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2008, 04:22:34 PM »
Pretty witty thread fellas. 

Two things: 1. does anybody know for sure that the feed/corn by the apartments is laid out for hunters or is it just that some little old lady at the apartments likes to look at deer out her window? and 2.  I reckon you have a better chance of one of your neighbors shooting you than a trained sharpshooter's errant round; at least I am more worried about my nieghbors, not the college girls out back, so much as the guy who shot his arrow through the window a few houses down from mine - said somebody bumped him while target shooting in the alley.  I love living in the yunk.
Logged