Can you love the wiss too much?
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Author Topic: Can you love the wiss too much?  (Read 1237 times)
jomissa
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« on: March 05, 2008, 08:17:44 AM »
First and foremost.  I love the wiss.

On Sunday I went for a ride before the thaw started at 10:30.  I was really shocked to see wheel deep ruts on MANY sections of the trails.  This is especially true of the newly built sections of trail...some of which have been the source of great debate on this board, and before this board, for some time.  The "demo" trail originally thought to have "Cured" was a disaster.  The newly rebuilt sections of trails by PMBA were mostly as mess save the sections with rocks.  Sections that are standing from the land before time were also a mess...but not the extent of the PMBA/IMBA trails.


I would hope to get to a meeting to discuss this but I continue to travel for work and can not attend so this is my outlet to ask some questions....

1. Is this normal for new trails?  I think the answer is yes. We have discussed this before.
2. Did we expect the Demo trail to exhibit these characteristics this far after the rebuild?  I would hope not.
3. Is there a way to stop this in the freeze thaw months of mid Feb. to April...probably not besides staying off and using discretion with PMBA's traffic light has been very good to show conditions to people that can not read.
4. Is there a way to really discourage uneducated riders from riding on the trails when the conditions are RED?  Maybe? 

As far as I'm concerned people that ride trails that muddy, knowing what they are doing to them, should have their bikes taken away and given to young children that we can teach the right etiquette to.  On Sunday, between 8-1030am the trails were fine.  At 1030 the thaw came upon us very fast...as I pulled up Springfield ave back to the Hill I saw bucket loads of riders gearing up for a ride.  SHAME on them.  I hope no PMBA reps were in those groups.  Now, I wont call a kettle black when I am guilty of not always following every rule but......more than dogs off leashes, horse/bike conflict, riding the hiking trails, flipping grandmothers the bird, I can not see a more destructive way to damage the park and MTB riders reps than what I saw on the trails the other day.  The ruts were gnarly and deep, all over the place, and UGLY in every sense. Angry.

So ill stop ranting...while it WAS fun.

Suggestions:
1. Print flyers to ask people not ride on the trails on those really obvious days.  Those of us that ride very early can hand them out to the potential offenders when we are leaving the park.  Problem with that is people leaving them on the ground and littering.

2. We talk to people.  I think that’s just too confrontational.  People may react badly.

3. Before ANY MORE TRAIL REPAIRS are done there’s an open forum, or two, or three, to cover the proposed trails where the reroutes and "improvements" are going to be made.  I fear that the last remaining "natural" (eroded albeit) parts of the park are going to disappear quickly at this rate. Lets say I saw a photo of a section that was proposed for a rebuild...id know the ones that we should leave alone!  Meetings are too sporadic and we go to the park and there’s, viola, new improvements and maintainence at every turn.  Some good some not so good.

I continue to be torn by this discussion and PMBA's role in this.  I have always been a supporter of PMBA...but my concerns grow about the approaches used to show the love.  I know we all love the park.  Issues...There’s been a promotion of the park, riding in the park has been encouraged more and more (we are the biggest users of the trails I think...based on the study) but days like Sunday really make me squirm.  Thus- the unending dialogue of PMBA, FOW, FPC, and other groups trying to all love the wiss.  I think we may be loving it too much...crazy but maybe true.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 08:37:11 AM by jomissa » Logged
Dmitri
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2008, 08:35:01 AM »
Curing time could vary greatly depending on the soil, conditions, use. We are discussing possibilities of leaving the new trails closed to majority of traffic for a prolonger period of time after they have been cut for curing.

Educatoin is the biggest issue. Did you talk to the folks in that group you saw gearing up for a ride? Could/should tell them "i just came out of the trails, they are thawing, getting very muddy, would you consider not riding today, as you will be damaging the trails"

[Edit - due to excellent point by jomisa]
The best way to have yourself heard is to come out to the TMDs, and show up an hour or so before the start time. There are always several people preparing and setting up up to 2-2.5 hours before the official start time. At that time we discuss and do the final assesment of the work planned for the day.
However, we encourage everyone voice their opinions and suggestions. This is why this web site and these forums exist. There is really no wrong place and time to talk about it. In the forums, at the meetings, during the TMDs, during the rides. It is understood that we all have different time constraints and offer support in different ways, work, time, money, etc. We all are always open to suggestions, and listen attentively. Everyone should feel free to talk to any PMBA member, especially board members, at any opportunity, to voice their concerns, suggestions or any thoughts. And bring the users' suggestions to the table when planning work days.
I hope you're familiar with STI and had taken time to look at the write up and the map. Ultimately, that is the master plan. Most of the work and re-routes we are doing now, will fall into that master plan, with few exceptions when we are doing temporary fixes until the final fix is in place.
http://fow.org/sustrails.php
[End of edit]

Dmitri
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 09:17:43 AM by DZM3 » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2008, 08:46:24 AM »
It will be like preaching to the Choir Undecided and very frustrating. But we CAN make an impact with education, marketing and special meetings with pictures and points on when to ride and not to ride. When one has only a few days or even a few hours to get a ride in, most won't pay attention to the conditions so I feel we need OPTIONS for rides when it is bad. Where else can we go? Any ideas?
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2008, 09:03:20 AM »
I'm not sure curing was the issue with the recent damage as other sections that have been there forever were just as bad. The section on the opposite side from Demo 1 (the trail that starts at Rittenhouse Town if you're heading towards the Inn with the exposed pipe) was just as bad in spots and that trail has been there forever. In my opinion, it looks like Demo 1 was ridden by a small group (or small number) of people just when the trails were at their absolute worst. The ground must have been saturated by the snow melt and either did not freeze or thawed before they rode. Before this, Demo 1 had held up pretty well after it was put in.

I admit I was pretty pissed too when I saw the ruts all over the place. I'll admit, I had this fantasy of forced chain-gang trail maintenance for the offenders. I guess it boils down to the fact that it's probably nearly impossible to prevent people from using the trails when they shouldn't. Education will go a long way, surely, but there will always be a few who don't care (though I suspect they're the minority). I'm going to chalk the Demo 1 damage to the "don't care" rider because there's really no way you can't know that riding in those conditions was a bad idea. There's lack of education and then there's lack of common sense, and one look behind them should have at least given them pause. I started riding regularly in the Wissahickon in 1994 and I think the current damage is the worst user-created damage (to existing tread, not in a cumulative sense) I've seen in all those years. Nature is still on top of the heap, but this was some ugly stuff.

I'm no saint, these are just my opinions.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 09:05:54 AM by RepoMan » Logged
Rico
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2008, 09:05:52 AM »
Wouldn't one of the best times for education and marketing for non-PMBA trail users be at the upcoming Rally In The Valley?  Is there a display or literature we can hand out along with a brief speech to let people know about damage to trails during these types of conditions and point them toward the literature and encourage them to be active, join TMDs and learn.  

I missed the RITV last year, so I don't know if this was done then, but if not, maybe it's a good idea.
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jomissa
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2008, 09:07:46 AM »
D-

TMD is simply not realistic for some of us.  Some people have family comittments, or work, on the weekends that prohibit us from getting out any later than early in the am 730-8am.  

Also, Please re-read your email.  you get a DUDE! from me on that one.  PMBA CAN NOT DICTATE that people come to TMD to have a voice in this process.  Some people donate TMD time, some people donate money, some people donate other things...like time to run the organization.

PMBA has excelled  in saying they are inclusive and I encourage your extending your stated thinking on how we can best contribute.  if you limit people...the process breaks and you lose support.  period.
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RepoMan
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2008, 09:11:26 AM »
Quote from: RicoCPA on March 05, 2008, 09:05:52 AM
Wouldn't one of the best times for education and marketing for non-PMBA trail users be at the upcoming Rally In The Valley?

I think that's a great idea. As has been mentioned, even a sign or posterboard with pictures and explanations of when and why it's not good to ride. Set it up in the registration area and if it's quick and to the point, maybe it'd sink in with people who didn't necessarily know better. The sport definitely throws out conflicting messages. I think some people see magazine pictures and ads with riders absolutely covered in mud and think that's part of what trail riding is.
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Rico
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2008, 09:22:30 AM »
Especially the trail erosions pics in the Sustainable Trail Initiative pack.  The picture showing Dave Dannenberg in the middle of the trail and the red line that shows where the trail should be above his head proves a major point.

I think the STI is one example of literature to be made available to educate.
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Dmitri
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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2008, 09:27:06 AM »
Quote from: jomissa on March 05, 2008, 09:07:46 AM
Also, Please re-read your email.  you get a DUDE! from me on that one.  PMBA CAN NOT DICTATE that people come to TMD to have a voice in this process.  Some people donate TMD time, some people donate money, some people donate other things...like time to run the organization.

All right, I edited my post.
However, if you read my original post I did say that there is a fine balance between getting high envolvement and getting bogged down in just too many conflicting opinions and wishes.
We appreciate all the help in all forms, we appreciate all the opinions and suggestions and do take them into the account. No matter when and how they were delivered to us.
If someone cannot attend TMDs due to whatever reason, but wants to be involved in planning process, there are other ways. I assume that person does ride/hike/jog in the park? Well, he/she can take notes and ideas, and pass them along to the TMD leaders and get involved in email discussions in planning of TMDs.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I want to encourage everyone to take PROACTIVE approach. Lets all try to find ways to have our voices heard, instead of saying that we weren't asked or given opportunity to make an input.
And I have to say that you're doing an excellent job starting these conversations in the forum.

So do you have some specific ides for specific spots and trails that you would like to see addressed?
We are here now, and everyone is listening.
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Chuck U
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2008, 10:44:01 AM »
I think the forum is a great place to discuss this.  The monthly meeting is great but the forum lets people think out their thoughts in a bit more detail, IMO.  There is almost no excuse not to post issues here, most all of us have some type of net access.

Answers to your questions, IMO, which may not be PMBA official....

1.  Any time we get ground saturation and it freezes it's gonna be SUPER soft when it thaws.  Especially if there is an underlying frost deeper in the ground.  So that makes it normal for non-rock trails, IMO.

2.  Demo 1, I dunno what IMBA thought about it, but yes I can see it being soft for this long.  One, I don't see it EVER being firm during a thaw like this.  It may get better as the organic material leaves the tread area, but it's mostly soil and will get saturated and soft.  It should handle normal rains better with time.   Comparing this to the trail it replaced (some of which may be obvious, sorry):  It replaced the fall line trail.  #1 reason for redoing this was to get a trail that reduces soil losses.  It is a success in this regard IMO.  Muddy ruts, even if they are a bad image, are not tons of soil washing away in rain storms.   They are also easier to fix.

3.   IMO, if we want to keep some natural dirt tread trails it just comes down to trying to keep as many people off as possible and then fixing whats damaged.  Could armor it in the worst spots.

4.  We need to think about permanent signage at the trail heads.  With graphics so even people that don't like to read get the point.  Encourage people to visit this site that has on going discussions about this....and more info.

As for the #3 suggestion.  This is an open forum.  We need everyone to come here and voice their concerns.  As far as trail reroutes, the #1 objective is to stop the massive soil losses of the bad trails.  So chances are if it's deep fall line ravine trail, it needs to go.  If it's a fun one, yeah that kinda sucks, but if you truly love the wiss I wouldn't think it would be an issue.  This trail needs to be here for future users more so than if a washed out trail is fun to ride or not.  We can make the reroutes fun too and everyone has a different idea of fun, so speak up.

I would suggest maybe starting a trail reroute forum for these discussion.  It'd be cool to put up the proposed reroutes, with details and maybe photos before we work on them.  So people that can't make it to the TMD can discuss.  I know a bunch of the smaller details are done during TMD as we go, but the major stuff is/should be planned out before hand.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 10:46:27 AM by Chuck U » Logged
fishnchips
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2008, 11:51:55 AM »
I was at that lower part where that burned out car was on Livezy, a place where DD had put in the huge rocks essentially over the massive mud pit. Well, the mud is completely gone, and the rocks now look like a bridge more than an underlayment. But, they have not moved!

The only way to stop some of erosion is to underlay every eroding section with rock. We can put in drains and built proper trails all we want, but with the amount of usage these trails get and the kind of weather we have, they will erode.

Though that being said I'm confident a lot of what people see as 'ruts' and 'ruined' trails are not as bad as they look. They will bounce back, especially when the spring plants take off and add a lot of needed green/rufage/life/death/decay to the park.

We are having a dramatic effect on usage (if just among ourselves), tough we will not stop people from riding in poor conditions no matter what. Instead I'd like to build trails that can handle moderate use at these times, otherwise we are fighting a loosing battle.

There are opinions expressed that some of the worked trails are simply not measuring up to the promise, and though I'm proud of the work we'd done, I too sometimes think we are heading in the wrong direction. I've mentioned this next idea a couple of times and been told that it won't work by the powers that be. However, I keep coming back to it, and I think it has merit.

Much of the problems of the entire trail system could be fixed if we just leave the park to evolve with us naturally. (Bare with me here) As a trail wears it widens and deepens, roots get exposed, and trees fall. Normally the big rule here is "DONT MAKE A SWITCHBACK". We cut out the tree and keep using the same old trail. Instead when the tree falls we should leave it, and we should create a  switchback, and we should make that switchback the new trail. Meanwhile, the old trail is closed where the tree fell, and for the next 10 years that tree will rot and plants will grow and the tail will be repaired.

If we went around every tree instead of through it before long every path in the park would zigzag back and forth, up and down the slope. We'd no longer have straight wide open trails, we have a constantly varying terrain. The trail would keep evolving continually, and new trails would form and old ones repaired in a never ending process.

Obviously this wouldn't work for every tree fall and every trail, but I think a proper balance can be achieved.

We have a huge park and so many challenges and areas that need attention, I don't see any reason we can't experiment with this idea over a few miles of trail. Say from the golf course to the singletrack.

JMO
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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2008, 12:38:16 PM »
I'm all for armoring or otherwise fixing the problem spots.  Problem spots being the ones that are constantly muddy.   What we had the past week was a whole trail system that was a problem spot.  This is a special condition.  There are just times when people should stay off.

I'll still say the ruts are less of a real problem than the ravines and fall line trails.  Not very good for our image though.
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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2008, 03:42:31 PM »
Collective suggestions...opinons???

1. Signage: Good idea butSignage: need lots of permissions and $$ to make the signs.

2. Print flyers to ask people not ride on the trails on those really obvious days.  Those of us that ride very early can hand them out to the potential offenders when we are leaving the park.  Problem with that is people leaving them on the ground and littering.

3. We talk to people.  I think that’s just too confrontational.  People may react badly.

4. Use events like RITV- i dont think it gets the core riders that want to ride in crap conditions....my recollection is many RITV 1.0 riders were beginners to novice riders.

5. lobby bike shops to make messaging part of their sales process.  Selling a bike to a newbie should include something about rules of the road.  maybe PMBA gives shops a new rider packet with a flyer and a sticker in an nvelope or something as a parting gift.  in there we can addrss trail condition rules of the road.  i dont see many shops telling people this when they sell bikes....
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Chuck U
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2008, 04:22:06 PM »
1.  Yeah, costly...but constant and semi-permanent.  I think PMBA is looking to make an legal alliance with FOW and the park system, so maybe this would help with the permissions and spread costs.  (?)

2/3.  Good idea with the flyers and the trail ambassador program might help with talking directly.  One concern with the flyers for me would be handing them out after riding.  I understand that many early riders this time of the year ride on frozen trails but it might not come off so well suggesting someone else not ride, right as you are finishing up one.   That said, absolutely if it explains how the conditions are deteriorating via thaw, etc......and how to avoid it (ex. ride early during the frozen morning hours).

4.  New riders would be good too.  Sometimes MTB is marketed in a way that many new riders may feel its cool to ride in bad conditions.  Or they see others out and figure it might be ok.   

5.  Shop thing is a great idea.  Does IMBA have anything like that?

And as always, there are hikers and horses out there doing similar damage, our marks are just more distinctive.  On the bright side, we are very close to the end of the freezing season....so it should be getting better.
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2008, 09:28:06 PM »
Wow this same discussion happen last year at this same time! We all have opinions on the trail conditions, and your opinion is more than likely different than the next guy, but we all share the same feelings: The trail should not be used when they are soft and wet.

Humans are part of nature and you cannot fight nature, but must rather learn to work with it. At wiss we deal with some unique situations: The history, topography and soil conditions and the sheer volume of users that is always increasing, we have our work cut out for us.

Lots of good ideas being thrown around in this discussion, and keep em coming cause they will make an influence. The idea of education at the bike purchase is a great idea. Not sure if a full PMBA packet could be given out but who knows.

I wish there were a magic recipe to fix the fall line trails that are washing away without contending with the soft unpacked tread surface of a new trail. We are in constant discussions behind the scenes on ways to deal with this apect of nature, so please stay tuned to our upcoming TMD's and get a chance to experience the methods and make them happen first hand.

In a month many of the ruts you see will be smoothed out thanks to the changing seasons, and some of the sections will actually experience less erosion from wind and water due to thier new design. Wind and water cause much more damage than our modality. I can't wait for spring..and for my ribs to heal.
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2008, 07:49:26 PM »
josh,

i feel ya. i really do!

in fact i think i was the guy who started "this" post last year....

some people are either fuckin dumb or really inconsiderate and there is no changing that. those people (along with a small number who don't know any better) make this happen every year and the more people there are riding the park the more of these folks there are bound to be.

there just seems to be no way around it.

quick story: me and dimitri were out doing hill repeats in the park one night cause the trails were just horrible. i mean disgusting unrideable horrible...

we were rolling through the VG lot and some guy asks us "how are the trails" we were really nice, but pretty much politely said they are horrible you really shouldn't ride. we rode off... rode up wises mill and back down and he was gone but his car was still there. he was out riding the trials.

i wish i could have left a note on his car asking him how ruining the trails was.

this year i have just stayed the f out of wissahickon during this time because the ruined trails due to peoples ignorance really drives me nuts as well. they do heal up though.

flyers might do something. i do yell at people when they are doing something dumb sometimes... i don't have an answer but man did i just ramble on.  Grin
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 07:57:41 PM by max » Logged
Rico
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2008, 08:39:55 AM »
Quote from: max on March 06, 2008, 07:49:26 PM
we were rolling through the VG lot and some guy asks us "how are the trails" we were really nice, but pretty much politely said they are horrible you really shouldn't ride. we rode off... rode up wises mill and back down and he was gone but his car was still there. he was out riding the trials.

i wish i could have left a note on his car asking him how ruining the trails was.

Max,

Just to play Devil's Advocate....

How do you know he was riding the trails?  Did you actually see him out on there?  Maybe he rode around on Forbidden drive or somewhere else on asphalt?

I see no reason to condemn someone for speculation.  If he did actually ride the trail, then I agree with the fact that perhaps, he should be educated on what that does to the trails.

 - Rico
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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2008, 11:05:42 AM »
That's a good point Rico!

I always ride up to Wissahickon from Center City, and when I know the trails are going to be wet (thanks PMBA traffic light), I just do a lap of Forbidden Driven, maybe some hill climbs (Wises Mill), and head back home. I don't have a road bike, so this is the best way to get in some miles.

The problem is, when the trails are too wet to ride,  Forbidden Drive is usually a wet and sloppy mess too. The end result is that I probably get more dirty doing this than if I had ridden the trails, and I am sure to other people it looks like I have just come down from tearing up the trails.

No one has scolded me yet, but my guilty conscience has imagined a few disapproving looks Wink
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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2008, 11:37:13 AM »
For what it's worth, I was riding Thursday and Friday morning I could not believe how awesome the trails were! 90% of the ruts had flattened out and the trails looked prime. I am talking about the Demo 1 and even the Gorgas climb reroute. They were in great condition! I was shocked at that... I really think everyone is going to be pleased this year (once the wet season is done) at how nice the trails are going to look and feel. My last two rides were on amazing dirt, the kind that is super tacky and you feel like you're on rails. Ahhhh, memories. The trails are wasted now though  Cry
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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2008, 02:35:44 PM »
lou is right, the trails looked AMAZINGLY good in most spots before on our ride before the rain on friday!

and rico - your right he could have ridden forbidden but if your gonna ride that, i'd just hop on the road (or kelly dr) instead and spare myself the coating of mud.
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2008, 09:36:01 AM »
this am i am forgoing the am ride....and missed yesterday for obvious reasons....

as i jones around late afternoon .....ill look forward to seeing or hearing about the TC's.

something amazing may happen...

one thing id like to go back to, as noted in the earlier parts of the thread, is that before TMD happens in the future PMBA may want to get broader consensus on what trails are priorities.  Even with the wiss plan for sustainable trails this group is way out in front of it.  lou suggested having a TMD thread on the board.  is that possible?  where people can make suggestions, pinpoint on maps where this spots are, and submit photos?  lso the bike shop flyer fr newbies seems like it got some support. 

hope to make a meeting in the future. but until then...i have the board. -j
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2008, 11:23:54 PM »


You might love the wiss too much, but never enough!
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« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2008, 12:46:34 PM »
Most everyone I have ridden with has bumped into a TM day. Some new friends that I ride with I met during one of those days.