Trail conditions
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Dmitri
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« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2008, 12:20:58 PM »
Two words : "Hoof prints"

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« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2008, 12:45:25 PM »
I was just going to mention the horses.  Is this the proper order of impact on trail conditions from most to least?

Horses
Bikes
Hikers

Or do bikers and hikers affect the trails the same?
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pahearn
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« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2008, 12:59:56 PM »
I think it depends on how much traffic a trail gets for each user type. For instance, horses definitely can cause greater damage to trails, but since there are far fewer horses and a whole lotta bicycles in the Wissahickon, the majority of the trail problems are caused by bicycles IMO.

-pete
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Dmitri
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« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2008, 01:06:32 PM »
There were studies done to indicate that hiker and bikers exhort the same impact on the trails.
Great point, Pete, it's the number of users, and I would hazard a guess that between the xc joggers, hikers and dog walkers there are slightly more pedestrians than bikers, with horses trailing way way back

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« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2008, 01:19:48 PM »
Maybe if we do eventually post signs it could help educate some of the other users aside from bikers....like the ignorant horse riders that we encountered on the last TMD that thought we closed a, "perfectly good trail and replaced it with a bike trail."  Paul tried to explain that the closed trail was totally eroded, but he didn't want to hear any of it.
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Chuck U
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« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2008, 01:28:21 PM »
On that note, maybe we should try to get our trail conditions graphic on the FOW and Wanderers site.  It's not just useful for us...
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Lou
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« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2008, 03:33:52 PM »
As I read more and more books and articles on trails and get educated, I know that the main problem with the Wiss trails are not people using them, it's their design. I am fascinated by these books, and then applying what I learn to the actual trails in my backyard. Riding, or any other use, in the mud will not "ruin" any trails. What it does is "displace" the tread materials, whether it be rock, dirt, shit, etc. thereby requiring more frequent trail maintenance. Trails are always changing, no matter if anyone uses them or not. That's what mother Earth does, she changes all the time.

As humans who want to recreate, we try to make these trails usable for our purposes (Wiss=multi use) and design/build them to the best of our abilities to make them last as long as possible between maintenance periods. However, due to trails designed for industry rather than recreation, the Wiss has to be totally redesigned first, hence the Sustainable Trails Initiative. PMBA has done great work in doing band-aid fixes in the interim. 

Soooooooooo, when I see someone riding wet or muddy trails, I get upset because it will require us to get out there and maintain them more often. Nobody is RUINING the trails so I will never use that term. If I ride when it's soft I am less upset with myself because I have logged over 100 hours maintaining them. But when I see someone out there who DOES NOT PARTICIPATE and help maintain them, I have a right to get upset. Our signs should read: "Look, if you MUST ride when it's wet, then YOU BETTER SHOW UP AT THE NEXT TMD or we will hunt you down!"  Grin OK, maybe something to that effect but more politically correct.

My advice to everyone who has strong feelings on this topic: educate yourself so you can speak intelligently about it and you will be far more effective when talking to people who are ignorant on the subject.
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Dmitri
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« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2008, 03:48:53 PM »
Lou, this could turn into an academic long drawn discussion, but I'll try to be breif.

Sustainable trail = No, to very little maintenance required over the time. Designed in such a way that it maintains itself, but properly shedding water, and withstanding to normal use under normal conditions

Riding/hiking/jogging/horse riding on the soft and muddy trails displaces the material. Creating ruts and puddles, thus preventing the trail from shedding water properly as it was designed to do. Thus requiring maintenance, and frequent one. Thus the trail is not sustainable anymore.

The trails itself migh tnot be ruined. But the sustainable trail and our efforts have been.

Case example is Demo #1. There are spots on it where riding/walking/etc on it when it was muddy created insloped and badly bermed trail, thus trapping the water and creating catch 22 of making those spots even muddier when it rains. Thos few sections of that trail seezed to be sustainable. At least until it'll be repaired.

just my $02.0

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Lou
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« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2008, 03:55:59 PM »
We're probably splitting hairs, but the reality of our situation is this:

1) All trails no matter how well built will require maintenance because mother nature changes them. This process is excelerated by using them in less than optimal conditions.
2) See my other post regarding my slob neighbor, we will NEVER stop some people from using the Wiss whenever they feel fit. This is America man!
3) The more we educate all users, and plead with them to spare the trails when they are muddy, the more we will be doing to help reduce the maintenance intervals.
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Chuck U
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« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2008, 06:04:04 PM »
Cool on the front page info Lou!

Thoughts on your points....

1.  Is there any info about how much extra damage the trails receive when used under poor conditions.  Seems to me that one user in really bad conditions could displace the material of many many (hundreds?) of users under normal conditions.   Maybe if users saw it in this way, they would rethink their actions.

2.  A$$holes are a$$holes, but we should make it known that they are a$$holes.  Cheesy

Other than that, I think demo 1 will be better, it's still just a little fragile from being newer.   But it is a great example of what can happen when used in poor condition.

And since I didn't have any farm storys the night of the last meeting, a farm story that relates to this:   I used to bomb the farm paths with my cousin on the atvs.  Like most kids, mud puddles were fun.  So we rode them all at first.  Became clear really early that we really made them MUCH larger and hold water for WAY longer than everything else.  Also became clear that we would get an a$$ beating if we kept doing it......

We did negotiate a non used area for our personal mud pit though.
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« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2008, 08:24:51 PM »
Im going to wear an electronic  collar that shocks me everytime I cause damage to the trails while I ride. 


Tazer Him!
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Lust4singletrack
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« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2008, 10:05:52 PM »
I must say that Lou has nailed it on the head with the education part. The more you know about not only trails, but peoples perception when using them, the better off you are. It's all about perception. Most of us have the same feelings about the trails and would agree almost 100%. However we all have different opinions on the same subject, therefor this discussion could go on and on.

I believe that humans are part of nature. You cannot control nature. Just look at the trails that erode due to their design. You cannot contol that and you will never be able to stop people from using the trails when conditions are what most would consider less than ideal. Now take into consideration how many users there are at Wiss! The trails are going to change no matter what because of this nature.

I think Chuck also made a good observation. Comparing how much impact the tread receives when conditions are good and bad by number of users that causes that said impact. That's a very good way to look at it.

I rode tonight. Yea that's right. It was awesome.
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« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2008, 12:12:24 AM »
Obviously we need an approach including education and sustainable trails... But I would like to have trails than can handle some riders in the rain. At lot of the mud damage caused is horrendous, but some of it looks worse than what it is. Demo 1 right now is looking like it did that first month it was in, but I'm hoping it will rebound well, (though obviously it's going to need ongoing maintenance.)   No matter what we do the park will evolve over time.

Facing VG, if you head up the steep trail to the left, it takes a sharp left turn, about 100 yds up is a pretty rocky section. Stop and take a look there sometime. To the right and to the left you'll see a huge swath of the earth that just slid out; a giant mud slide. It took rocks, earth and trees with it. I don't know if it is as noticeable as it was years back, but I'm guessing it was about 5' deep and going up and down the hill side fall line as far as I could make out. There was no trail there, no bikers, no horses, no hikers, just forest, earth and rocks, and yet it still collapsed. I'm sure an underground stream was running through, and maybe a tree fell and started a chain reaction... But my point is that sometimes there is nothing you can do.

That same year one of the gravel roads on CH side was totally washed away, about 2' - 3' deep. It had probably been there a 100 years.



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Kelly
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« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2008, 09:31:17 AM »
Lots of good discussion here. I'd agree that even with education and signage there will always be people who will say "that doesn't apply to me, I don't care." Hopefully they'll be the minority in the park.

I'd also like to add that although I think trail use education would be a great thing, I wouldn't like to see the Wissahickon become like some parks where there's a "if you leave tracks, you absolutely shouldn't be on the trail" rule, meaning the place has to be 100% dry. One park in particular, Shaeffer Farms in Maryland, has pretty pretty strict rules/etiquette about riding in anything but dry conditions.

Trail Closure Information: Trail Closure Information: During the winter months DNR will close the gate except when trails are unusually dry. Do not ride when the gate is closed. You can be ticketed if riding when the gate is closed. No night riding is allowed except with special permission from the park. Call the Seneca Creek Trails hotline for current trail status 301-924-1998. DNR uses an honor system for all other months when the trails are closed for 24 hours after a heavy rain...

Please observe the following trail closure policies:

    * Do not ride for 24 hours after a soaking rain
    * Do not ride if trails are wet and muddy
    * Observe all gate closures

I think this is because to get the trails built, MORE had to assure the DNR that they would be well maintained and not turn into a rutted or eroded mess. Totally understandable, and it's their prerogative. They created the trails, they maintain them, they get to set the rules.

However, I don't think you can apply those rules to the Wissahickon. Number one, the drainage here is totally different. We all know that sometimes we can have a soaking rain and the trails will be dry the next day. We also know that most of the park can be dry yet you'll come across a muddy section (think the mud puddle by the golf course with that ancient plank of wood in it).

Education and signage, tailored to fit the distinct characteristics of the Wissahickon trails, would probably go a long way to helping sustain the trails. Blanket rules like "no riding 24 hours after rain", would probably just get ignored.

...my 2 cents
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Lust4singletrack
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« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2008, 12:12:49 PM »
Agreed Repo. Something like would never work around here. That's why I started this board and I encourage everyone to give their trail conditions updates. Wiss trail conditions vary so greatly at all times.

Demo 1 is seeing some accelerated wear but that's because it is experiencing tread displacement before it really had a chance to compact, caused by the volume of users in our park. It's going to keep on happening on all the new trails that we cut. Although I must say the reroute we did at Livezey held up really well. I went back one time to tweak one spot where a horse print made a big hole in the new tread and also did some minor deberming.
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« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2008, 12:35:21 PM »
Then maybe we need to do what DD suggested, and let the new trails sit for a long period before we open them. We learned from the upper trail at Gorgas that we can't be to hasty, but maybe we need to wait it out through a full growing season.

As far as education and signage, it runs akin to sex education. "Kids, we don't want you to have sex, but if you are going to have sex it's important you do so safely".

"Don't use the trails in rainy or wet conditions, or until the trails are completely dry. If you are riding during poor conditions stick to the Forbidden Trail. If you find yourself on the trail please stick to the center of the trail; ride or walk through mud puddles rather risk widening the trail. If in doubt, stay off the trails."
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« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2008, 11:03:16 PM »
I believe the impact on the trails erosion is only going to increase in deterioration and become less sustainable over the next several years if every winter it becomes more common that it is over 65+ degrees, rather than having snowfall we have rainstorms, which are normally experienced in early spring.

Do you think that more riders go out and ride when its warm and rainy, were trail  damage sustained is elevated, or in the winter snow, when the trails have a bit less wear from tire tread because its frozen?.....

Trail Mongers to the rescue!
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« Reply #77 on: February 08, 2008, 11:42:11 AM »
I think your theory is right on.  I'm sure it's better for the trails to be frozen longer than they have the last couple of years.  This time of year the warm weather is almost like a plague as it sucks for snowboarding too.  The 10 day forcast looks cold though so that should help.  Last year was my first winter in Philly but late Feb. and Mar. were definintely the worst months for cold and snow so maybe that trend will happen again and the trails will stay frozen. 
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« Reply #78 on: February 09, 2008, 01:58:03 PM »
2/9 Pics:

Demo 1 by the sinkhole

Not much on the tires.

Looking the other way

That actually looks worse than it was. It was pretty hard, but it looks sloppy in the picture.

Overall the park was pretty solid. It wasn't rock hard, but it wasn't too soft.

By the way, when I'm there and taking shots, I usually email them straight to Flickr right after I take them with the phone. They go to the main page, not that Wissahickon set, but if you're looking for conditions, check the main page between 8:30 and 10am on Saturday and Sunday. That's typically when I upload them. I'm usually out every weekend, conditions permitting, but don't take lack of pictures as "it's no good". Life and/or late nights sometime interfere with riding.  Grin
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 01:59:42 PM by RepoMan » Logged
Lou
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« Reply #79 on: February 09, 2008, 07:53:53 PM »
Yo Repo, thanks a lot man. THis really helps everyone! Good stuff.
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RepoMan
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« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2008, 04:07:50 PM »
Glad to be of service!

2/10 pics:

1
2

Monday should be great.
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pahearn
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« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2008, 11:49:42 AM »
FYI -- This morning everything was frozen but by 11:30a things are thawing quickly and there are some really sloppy spots and general saturation of trails. Conditions are orange at best. I suspect it to get even worse soon, the sun is really melting things despite the ambient temp.

-pete
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« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2008, 12:09:41 PM »
I went out pretty early this morning and by the end of the ride the roxborough side of the park was getting pretty sloppy.  I was really dissapointed to see so many deep ruts and tire marks on the trails.  I guess that it is going to be a never ending battle to keep people off the trails when they are too wet to ride.  What a shame!
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« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2008, 02:31:14 PM »
I agree, early today while it was frozen was good, but areas in the sun that had thawed were bad. Demo 2 was a muddy mess as it looked like it had cooked in the sun all morning. I could be wrong, but I think it probably won't be much better tomorrow.

Some pics:

Demo 1 Frozen
Demo 1, looking the other way - Treadmarks in the pic were frozen

Here's the bad:

New trail abused - Treadmarks were frozen
Bad ruts on the Walnut Lane/Tulpehocken side - Probably the worst mess I saw today. It was obvious from the erratic lines that whoever it was was slipping and sliding all over the place when they rode. The ruts were frozen this morning, but they were deep and ugly and all over that section.
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Lust4singletrack
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« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2008, 08:57:28 PM »
2/19/2008

Trails are in decent shape. The few usual muddy spots but overall wetness was minimal. As long as there's no rain tommorow should be good conditions.
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