Upgrade Wheels and Brakes
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KJohnsting
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« on: October 01, 2007, 06:50:22 PM »
I have a 2004 Trek 4300 entry-level hardtail. I have a problem with the wheels getting knocked out of true a lot. So I am considering upgrading my wheels to a more durable, quality set. At the same time I am considering changing the rim brakes to disc brakes for better performance and reliability.

Does anyone have any suggestions? What to buy? What NOT to buy?

* I would love to buy a mid level bike. But I can't spend a grand on a used bike right now.
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Dmitri
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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2007, 09:46:38 PM »
Before you spend the money on the wheels, find a qualifies wheel builder mechanic who can properly true them and tension balance the spokes.
Your symptoms sound like you or someone else is truing them without getting the tension balanced, so as soon as you hit the trails, the unbalanced tension on the spokes pulls them out of true right away.
If you want to upgrade to next level bike, my advice would be not to spend the money on wheels and brakes now, instead get your current wheels fixed right way, and put that money away toward the future upgrade of the whole bike.

dz
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dieselkarl
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« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2007, 10:02:53 PM »
Dmitri's correct about a good mechanic working on your wheelset but with 3 years of knocks on your stock wheelset, you've probably gotten your money's worth out of them.  As far as wheel recommendations, any decent shimano hub (lx on up) laced to a Sun Rhino Lite is a solid and reasonably priced option.  Not the lightest rim but it's amazing what a Rhino Lite will put up with.  Mavic has some reasonably priced wheelsets - Crosslands, Crossrides, and CrossTrails which work well without busting the bank. 
Regarding disc brakes it's tough to beat the Avid BB7 mechanical disc for both performance, economy and ease of maintenance.  At half the cost of a hydraulic disc, it offers most of the power and you can utilize your stock levers. 

Invest in the best wheelset you can afford.  In addition to better durability, a higher quality wheel will likely have a lighter rim, better and lighter spokes and a smoother rolling hub.  This increases  speed, acceleration and fun.  Be savy about the rubber as well.  You want an ideal balance of traction, durability and weight.  Look for something with a kevlar bead and somewhat widely spaced knobs for the loose and occaisionally slipery conditions around here. 

Caveat - I do work for a shop.

Matter of fact, I think I've the bb7's on sale right now.  Come see me at REI.

Karl
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KJohnsting
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« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2007, 10:12:35 PM »
I am using Kenda Nevegal 2.35 rubber Stick-E. They were a huge difference from the Bontragers that came from the factory.

What is REI?
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« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2007, 10:29:21 PM »
Bontrager released a new wheelset at the beginning of this season that I was excited about and sold a few of.  The Rythym Elite or Rythym Comp wheelsets use a little wider rim than you'd normally see on a XC bike by about a few millimeters, making it a solid all mountain wheel that can handle the occasional drop with no problem. I have two pretty burly riders on them that are hardly light on their gear, and they've had no problems at all since June with a few rides a week each. 

The Rythym Comp is the more budget oriented set, as it does not use the swiss built hubset. I've ridden the more budget oriented hub for two seasons now with no problem on a Bontrager rim and have not had to true or tension it yet. 
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KJohnsting
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« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2007, 10:44:24 PM »
BTW: I am saying I have an issue with the wheels (particularly the rear) getting knocked out of true because I get this clanking noise coming from the rear. I had maintenance done at Bikeline in Warminster. The sound went away. The second ride after the work was performed the sound was back. It drives me NUTS!!

I also find the brakes (especially the front) to shake and vibrate a lot when I am breaking hard at speed  on a downhill, like when parking on the east lot at Valley Green and riding down to where the inn is.

Perhaps I just need a better trueing job down, or my hubs are silly? I don't know. I'm not a tech... yet
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Ken
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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2007, 10:48:36 PM »
REI is an awesome outdoors store with all kinds of goodies that make me smile... They also happen to be a sponsor of this club, which is nice... They're in Conshy... Got to mtbr.com and check out product reviews on parts if you're gonna buy used to make sure they will last. But if you can swing it, get a new wheelset. You will be very happy with new wheels and disc brakes especially will make your head spin. Rim brakes don't even come close... THis all translates into going faster and being in more control at the same time. Speed is good  Grin
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Lust4singletrack
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« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2007, 12:29:17 PM »
Also do don't feel like it's a waste to buy new wheels for you old ride because you can always swap them to a new bike or just have a spare set of wheels if you get a new that has an already dope set of hoops. It's a very good idea to have a spare set of wheels.

Getting disc brakes is going to be one the best upgrades you can do for your ride.
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Krotee
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« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2007, 12:49:53 PM »
Getting a bigger full suspesion ride can help, you may just be riding bigger than your bike can handle...
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KJohnsting
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« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2007, 03:21:30 PM »
You mean bigger as in I weigh too much for my current ride?
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Ken
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« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2007, 09:22:38 PM »
Allow me to translate.

He means more suspension travel like a long travel all mountain or freeride bike. That's what a lot of the guys in our group ride, and Kman may have a good point. Of course sometimes this means a hefty investment. Learning to be smooth on a bike with less travel will make you a better rider for when and if you do upgrade to a longer legged ride.

Even if you just upgrade the brakes and wheels you will be more confident and smoother. Smooth is the key to avoiding those OTB's.
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lanceh
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2007, 02:33:04 PM »
the only noise that could occur as a result of a wheel being out of true would be rubbing, most likely the rim rubbing on your brake pad. if that's not your problem then it's probably an issue with the hub.

as for the brake vibration it could be a pad alignment issue. when you apply the brakes is the front of the pad making contact with the rim before the rear of the pad. you mentioned it's primarily when descending, are you sure it's not just you sliding the bike and being tossed around by undulations in the trail?
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Krotee
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2007, 03:58:51 PM »
Tom is correct, your bike may not be able to handle the style of your riding, it happens when you crave more adrenaline.  Tongue
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KJohnsting
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2007, 06:37:59 PM »
It very well could be the hub. It's not from sliding or being tossed. The brakes just need adjustment.

I need a windfall of cash to just buy a new Gary Fisher HIFi. That would settle it.

Seriously I will save for a decent whell set and disc brakes until I can get a full suspension bike
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dieselkarl
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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2007, 07:13:19 PM »
Noisy rear end, huh.  Most of us in the shop suffer from that but i think that's more due to my penchant for good beer and bacon.  Could be a poor hub adjustment, loose cassette, bent deraileur hanger, etc.  The possibilities are vast. 
Lou gave a very nice description about us earlier in the thread.  We're a customer owned business ( co-op) that, in addition to bikes, sells everything else human powered and outdoors related.  We're a full service bike shop that's about quality and doing right by riders. 
It'll be busy this weekend with the fall sale but see me Friday afternoon or  Sat morning and I can show you some wheel and brake options. 

Karl
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KJohnsting
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« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2007, 08:11:23 PM »
Mystery solved!! I went to Keswick Cycle based on a recommendation of a co-worker. They inspected my rear wheel in a trueing machine. It turns out not only was my whell out of true, but the spokes were all very loose. I couldn't turn them by hand, but nor could I tell how tight they should be. With the rear trued, all that noise is gone. The noise was caused by spokes that crossed over each other were rubbing together.

I'll have to buy a trueing machine and learn to true, and save cash for a new full suspension ride.
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Dmitri
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« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2007, 08:40:33 PM »
Don't mean to be a wet blanket, but...
A good wheel stand is Park one, and is $170, to check the spoke tension you'll need to add a good tension meter which is about $50... That's a hefty investment.
Don't bother with cheap ones, I have a cheapie wheel stand and it's nearly useless, because it's not sturdy enough. I only use it for convenience of lacing the wheels, for truing I borrow friend's Park.
I'm still trying to talk myself into buying the Park one... My bank account disagrees.  Cry
How much did the charge you for trueing and tensioning the wheel? $20-30? Well trued and tensioned wheel shouldn't need any adjustment more than once or twice per year, that means it would take several years to pay off that investment.

Use that $220 toward the new bike.  Wink

dz
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Lust4singletrack
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« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2007, 10:39:48 PM »
That..is good advice. Truing wheels is not something you need to worry bout yet, but you should check your spoke tension from time to time. Just don't get all crazy with your spoke wrench turning away cause it can get ugly. I've been told you only want to make very small adjustments at a time.
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Dmitri
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« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2007, 11:56:49 AM »
Only half the turn at a time when doing the first couple of passes getting the spokes into the ball park tension, and as little as 1/4 or even 1/8th of a turn at a time later. Going around making small adjustments, re-checking tension on all of them... It's a tedious process, depending on your skill level and the wheels it can be anywhere from 20 minutes to 2+hours. Of course professional wheel builders will say that it's always 10-20 minutes, but I'm talking about us, home hacks.
I would say it's cheaper/quicker to find a good shop with deligent mechanics who can do the job right.

dz
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KJohnsting
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« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2007, 09:08:51 PM »
I will keep a sharp ear out for that noise indicating the wheel is out of true again. If it takes me two weeks to knock it out again, either a new wheel set or new bike will be in order. I am hoping that Bikeline did a crappy job on the true job they did a couple months ago, and that I will have better results with this.

Does riding a full suspension bike put the rear tire through less stress? I would assume there is less of an impact factor since the rear shock could take some of it.
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Lust4singletrack
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2007, 09:48:40 PM »
Yea I'm sure it does a little bit. More importantly it takes the stress off your back!

I also have trouble with my rear wheel at times. A lot of stuff that your front wheel gets over when you pull up, your back wheel does not, so it takes more direct hits. Plus you have to keep more of your weight back on fast downs putting even more stress on it. Try to never lock up your back brake (or your front) as a rolling tire will go much smoother over rocks and bumps.

If you really want to be smooth through rocks and technical lines, stay off the brakes as much as possible. Scrub speed with your heavy braking on the smooth sections of trail and then let the bike roll faster through the rough parts.
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