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New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Topic: New trail by Wises Mill Rd...... (Read 1487 times)
Chuck U
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Posts: 274
Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #30 on:
December 01, 2008, 09:46:39 AM »
And further on the machine. It wasn't even cut to the full width of the blade in many spots as the one side of the blade was in the air off the down slope. So the bench is fairly narrow, but the disturbed soil is wider. This would be the case by hand as well. For example the section closest to the creek crossing was hand cut. Even with the machine the up slope grade is smoothed by hand, making it look wider at first.
Just scraping the top here would have left a organic loose tread that would have collapsed and/or bermed. It would have been a mudfest with a very long cure time and more future work. By cutting a bit deeper, you have more disturbed soil up and down slope, but we have a much more solid tread...and it is still pretty narrow. After some weathering it might even be more narrow than the mudfest option.
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Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 09:50:36 AM by Chuck U
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jomissa
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #31 on:
December 01, 2008, 02:10:28 PM »
"You are not going to get 18 inch wide trails. Go to Belmont or Pennypack if you want narrow trails."
Dannmer- I think you need to check this at the door or PMBA will lose support very quickly from some of us. I would absoloutly like to have narower trails in the wiss and this is something your comment seems to discount completly. If this is the patterntude (new word) that fishnchips is talking about im with him. its terrible and if thats the "way wiss is going to be upgraded/helped" im sadly not that supportive of it nor the orgs that will take this approach.
not sure i agree with nor understand the switchback comment if they are spaced correctlu but im sure you will tell me why you are right due to some technical trail building scheme.
How about every time a trail section is to be reworked we do the following:
-public notice on the site and via email to all members of the work well before hand
-pictures of the site to be reworred are published
-before and after mock ups or sight lines are posted
-public comment/debate
I do agree the lincoln side of the park has a lot of options but NOBODY does any maintainence there today and its pretty far off the beaten path for many riders...and its not high on the priority of damaged trails id guess.
finally- im afraid this is spurring some good debate but getting close to the issue that razzzed me a few months ago on the bells mill work with someone telling me to come out and help or basically shut up. I donate money and a voice to FOW/the chestnut hill community/ and users in the park as i dont have the time to do maintainence- nor should that be a criteria anyway. IM a PMBA member. Period. Lets just make sure we dont cross into that arena, ok? I know im bringing it up but consider it a counter measure as im felling that is the way this discussion is going.
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Dmitri
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #32 on:
December 01, 2008, 02:39:03 PM »
Quote from: jomissa on December 01, 2008, 02:10:28 PM
not sure i agree with nor understand the switchback comment if they are spaced correctly
Spacing them correctly means that the trail cannot gain or drop too much elevation in the switchback tunr itself. Meaning that the approaching arm from above is close in elevation to the departing arm bellow, maybe just few feet apart. Thus creating a real problem with users cutting shot straight down the slope BEFORE getting to the switchback itself.
Besides, building switchbacks is about 5-10X more labor intensive than any other type of the trail.
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Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 02:55:32 PM by Dmitri
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Chuck U
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Posts: 274
Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #33 on:
December 01, 2008, 02:53:05 PM »
I don't see how it will hurt to have a post here on the forums after the route flags go in the ground to get others to discuss the project and concerns. If anything it will clear up a lot of the confusion as to the reasons some things are done.
Public meetings or not you know we always get questions about things like this. It's not really PMBAs fault, but people are much more likely to look here than hit all the public meetings. Curious parties could go look at the flag layout and a description here, which would make things 100x more clear than a map on FOW's site.
STI may have been around for a long time...but now that it is active, we are going to have a lot more people aware of it and wanting to know what is up. The planning process has left many users out of the picture.
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jacalyn.clawson
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #34 on:
December 01, 2008, 02:55:24 PM »
Quote from: Lust4singletrack on December 01, 2008, 08:54:04 AM
So what exactly happened? What's the positive outcome of this discussion?
I believe what Jesse is asking for is that information on all trail work (PMBA and non-PMBA projects) be posted prior to the trail work being done. Even when the trail work team does not need volunteers.
We all recognize that some jobs do not require a big crew and organization takes up time so it may seem easier to just do it yourself. But we all ride there and we all have a vested interest in the trails. No one likes to find out that a new trail has been built without them knowing about it.
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fishnchips
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #35 on:
December 01, 2008, 04:43:54 PM »
I've had another day to simmer down. Yes, this discussion is really a lot of things in one.
Jomissa, I would say I'm very much on board with the STI. This place will never be Diablo and we can never expect it to cater to only MTB. There are upward of 40 organizations that work or have a vested interest in the park, and it's an incredible balancing act. We aren't going to have 18" on the main trail, but we don't have the now. The thing to keep in mind is that even if the width is needed for access of the gater, plants do very often grow out of control and the corridor will, at times be as small as 18". All our trails are horse trails too, and with upward of a million people using them each year it's amazing they aren't all wide as freeways.
We as PMBA have just two years official history with the park, though MTB riders have over a 20year history. This process has been going a long while and the FOW and FPC have embraced MTB beyond any expectation. We should have a ride sometime and I can give you the entire history as I know it.
My issues are primarily with the implementation process of the STI on these smaller in-house projects. Basically there’s two or three that control it. They have been doing a great job, spending hundreds of extra hours, for free, to plan out the projects and get the crews working. But they are so used to doing it all themselves I feel that they aren’t waiting to see if the rest of us have any input. Phase One, a large project, was an example of the correct process. Not all of us were on board, but there was planning, a public walk through, an ample opportunity to talk to the IMBA trail crew during the very long process. There were 1000 limitations and problems of course, but that’s probably as good as the process gets.
However, I feel, as a regular volunteer, that we were blindsided by this one. It was a personal perfect storm. The same folks who were involved were also the ones who cancelled the official PMBA TMD because of the holiday. There was not a single mention on the site. Meanwhile I had laid out two posts advertising things people could do over the period. I’m 3000 miles away from home, and it’s obvious to anyone that I have more than a casual interest in the trails I ride 200 or so times a year. Many projects have gone on without me, but in most cases they’ve been very small, or off the beaten track.. But to have a major new trail cut with not even a peep from anyone, during a weekend were I would have loved to have had some extra options, well, I’m understandably upset.
But this has been happening in a way for a while now. We have a few people, (doing a tough job mind you), planning but also assuming that others are not interested. Up to a year ago I did ask to be involved in the walk thrus and only Dmitri ever bothered to let me know what might be happening and when. So I gave up on that, and for the most part I’ve assumed my role as TMD table guy. But I’ve seen it as a continual problem, and this time around it’s now a much bigger issue, because not only were the rest of use cut out of the planning, but we were cut out of the work too.
Other problems I see are with our style. We have shown time and time again, from Gorgas to this new line, that we’re trying to do too much too fast. I know it’s great to keep volunteers eager and working, but often we try to knock out way more trail than can be finished. And rather than going back to put the final touches on a section we move on to the next. Hence what I see, (and many others see), is “trail carpet”. If the process carries on like this we will no longer have to go to Middle Run to ride, because Middle Run is rapidly coming here! There’s nothing wrong with Middle Run, mind you, but it’s not the Wiss and I for one don’t want all of the character of the Wiss to disappear.
Here’s is what I’d like to see put into effect. Obviously we don’t want to clog the process, and projects can easily change depending on the weather and necessity. . But here are some suggestions.
1. I think the planning of these smaller locally manned projects should involve more people. There are a variety of ways for how this can take place. It doesn’t’ mean the people in charge won’t stay in charge, just that others will be able to offer suggestions too. This could even be weeks in advance.
2. Any new trail or major rework by any crew should be announced in advance, at least to the regular volunteer channels. Even if only a small crew is needed, at least some would be able to offer a comment or suggestion.
3. We should spend a couple TMDs or send a couple crews out on regular TMDs to do regular maintenance of the finished projects. Demo 1 is the first trail and it is need of maintenance. I’ve posted images of some of the problems, but I don’t think anyone ever responded. I know it’s much more exciting to cut in a new trail, but I’d hate for these ‘finished’ projects to deteriorate in any way. Perhaps some volunteers would be interested in a separate maintenance crew?
4. We need to slow down a bit, not a lot, just a bit. The enthusiasm on trail days is overwhelming and it’s natural to just to keep going, but it would enhance all these projects so much if we just took an extra hour at the end to have them peppered or otherwise finished them. I’m no expert in this, but I would say we are in need of some trail artists to come along put some life into a fresh trail. Maybe this could even involve inviting the WRV to come do some planting, or help close the old trail. Of course normally you’d wait a year to open a new trail, but we don’t have that luxury and therefore we have to spend the extra time to get them as good as possible from the get-go. I personally don’t’ see any problem with laying rocks, branches, etc….on top of a new sustainable trail, anything to break up the monotony of the freshly steamrolled look.
5. As much experience as our people have, no one here is a professional. On the whole we’ve done a great job, but many would agree that something is still lacking in our small projects beyond what I just mentioned. I’m not sure what it is, but that’s why I think we need more professional consultation.
6. Personally I think the STI needs to be adjusted and at the very least some special features, (not just MTB) would be included in little off shoots from the main trail. Having special features would reduce rouge trails, help with passing, and allow some breathing room for the different styles of riding a users.
7. Lastly, I think many sections of the trail, including Demo 1, could at times include some natural evolution the way Belmont is for the most part. But that is another subject entirely.
So for example, what’s a problem that my little brain sees with this new trail? First it’s seems thrilling so far, some nice flow, the great log work, (with two lines mind you).But what about the jumps? Perhaps the powers that be considered this, but up until now I’ve seen not a single mention. The new trail runs along a massive retaining wall, ranging say 3’ at the storm drain, to probably over 6’. I’ve looked at it once and I’d guess it’s at least 70 yards long. Unless a cast iron fence is built to run along the whole thing, there is no way on earth that jumper type riders will not be taking off that thing. Instead of pretending it doesn’t exist I feel that the trail should be planned for it. It’s going to be wet down there, (though I doubt it is a protected unique habitat as it’s just the area the storm drain empties), so it would be terrific if a section going each way was cleared for a landing zone, with maybe a dirt mound put into for landing or the climb back up. This is a perfect case where a feature trail, utilizing an old man-made wall and wasteland, could be adjacent to the main trail. There’s even room to have two jumps and ladder bridges back up. People who want the baby trail can take that, or they can hit the big stuff.
Again, maybe this was considered, but up to this point, (and I’ve waited), I’ve seen no mention of it. It’s one of those things that I would have loved to put my two cents in about before the process. Already the new trail is not shaped to take this idea into account, and yet it’s naïve to think that bikers won’t be impelled to jumping off this thing.
Just my two cents, if anyone’s interested…
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Kelly
Dmitri
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #36 on:
December 01, 2008, 04:58:10 PM »
Something that keeps coming up, and doesn't sound right. The "character of wiss".
Which character of which wiss are we talking about? The wiss of today? The wiss of 20 years ago? The wiss of 70 years ago of the time of WPA projects? The wiss of over a 100 years ago when the city purchased the land in late 1890s to preserve the drinking water of the creek that fed the city?
So which one are you talking about? The rocky eroded gullys of today? The straight gravel construction filled "roads" of the 20-30 years ago? The hand cut trails of the WPA era? The natural lack of trails or very few very narrow trails of 100+ years ago?
No, I personally haven't been here that long. But I read about the park and talked to people who had been in the park for 30, 40, 50 years...
The "wonderful rocky fun trails" we know today are there because of erosion and lack of the soil. Time after time, when there is trail work done, there are no rocks in the soil. None! Until you dig 2-3' deep. SO the smoother trails are actually more natural and more characteristing of the Wiss... Go figure.
Yes we all love challenge, and we will try to texture and add the "character" back into the new trails, but that is not what is naturally there.
I'm done with my rant.
dz
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fishnchips
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #37 on:
December 01, 2008, 05:33:08 PM »
Of course that is what is there. It's like a rock never peaked through a sustainable trail.
Obviously there is no room for gullied out 6' foot deep sections of loose rocks. Please tell me where I have ever said that? You're misinterpretation is just that. In fact, TM is the reason we are doing what we are doing to begin with, practically the reason why we formed. It's the reason why the STI exists? It's amazing how people can read so much into something that was never even suggested.
However, just making a sanitized contour trail swept clean of any life and smooth as asphalt is not how the park should be or or ever was. If you really want to go back to nature than you'll follow my advice on a naturally evolving trail; were we don't' just cut through every tree that falls... but again, that is a whole separate subject.
Most anyone who rides the park can comprehend the unique character of the what I'm referring too, and most of us, even before two years of trail projects, know we can't have continually eroding trails.
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Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 05:40:47 PM by fishnchips
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Kelly
Chuck U
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Posts: 274
Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #38 on:
December 01, 2008, 05:54:37 PM »
Yes, but what he is saying is that if you make a trail in the Wiss.....the Wiss character in most cases is smooth dirt. That's just what it is, naturally. The rocks appear as signs of erosion in most cases and in some spots they are DEEP under the soil.
So what to do? We can add rocks. But with that we need to bring rock in not to upset environmentalist. We need massive volunteer hours as well. On a large scale it will be a ton of hours. Will it upset others? Can it look natural? As has been the case in a few reroutes already we can use some rock sections with modification for storm water control.
This area is not rocky. Even the existing section (including the washout part) is fairly free of rocks. FWIW, we placed every rock we found and more in that trail.
There are a few problems with that stone wall. We will have to work with them.
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fishnchips
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #39 on:
December 01, 2008, 06:17:47 PM »
I'm not sure what park your in but I see rocks everywhere. It's not French Creek no, and there are plenty of smooth trails, but there's been no shortage of rocks throughout the park, with massive bolders making up entire sections. Maybe the top level of soft organcis don't have rocks, but rocks are all over the park. And it's not like we've tried to recreate nature anywhere so far. In fact, many many sections have been rock armored. Even the folks at IMBA said we want to pepper the trail a lot more. Texture gives life. You mayaswell lay asphalt it if you want the smooth steamrolled roly poly carpet.
We haven't even touched on the fact that even if humans would never have existed fall-line trails and gulleys can still form, and erosion can still take place. I've seen and can show you entire swaths of the hillside that have collasped. As far as I know it's nothing to do with human development. We have extremely loose soil and the whole place is continally eroding, not just because of man, or invasives plans and species. It would and will happen naturally too.
Something is missing with what we are doing, and it goes beyond apeasing all the factions in our builds. We have a style and somethings just not quite right with it. Hence the need for some more expertise from professionals. Many of you are gaining experiene and learning a lot, but none of us are experts. Reading a couple books and doing the same thing over and over again is not enough. If $15million spent and countless hours of volunteer time, it would be nice to iron out the process and techniques in these early days.
I'm not overly concerned with trail carpet in the sense that I think the Wiss will grow in and life will appear within the trail eventually. But something is still missing and many of our new sections look the same; almost text book. The wiss is not and never was text book.
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Kelly
dirtmerchant
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #40 on:
December 01, 2008, 06:32:01 PM »
You guys are still arguing on this
I'm gonna charge you guys for my time to read this...
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Chuck U
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Posts: 274
Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #41 on:
December 01, 2008, 06:32:42 PM »
Go out to that section and find rocks on the surface that are not in an area A: washed out by man made trails. B: From the stone buildings or walls. or C: in the creek beds.
It's not there. If it was there we would have rocks everywhere when we made the cut. Demo1 is largely similar. Of course there are rocks other places. Ironically one of the places that had the most natural rock was covered over by the professionals (EIT).
The place is erroding far more rapidly from human development. This includes the trails but it also includes the thousands of acres of concrete, pavement, and roofs that dump massive flows of water into the system during rains. It would happen naturally on a DRASTICALLY lower level.
If you are saying we should use as many places that have natural rock at the surface as possible....I agree 100%. There are lots of spots. But not there and they aren't naturally on the top of most of the current trail treads either.
The natural creek beds tend to be natural habitats and are not suitable for trail use.
Yes we have rock armored. Yes, it works and takes a lot of time. Yes, we have got in trouble for pulling our rocks from natural creek beds.
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Chuck U
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Posts: 274
Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #42 on:
December 01, 2008, 06:36:19 PM »
Quote from: Lou on December 01, 2008, 06:32:01 PM
You guys are still arguing on this
I'm gonna charge you guys for my time to read this...
I'm gonna charge you my time for you not communicating the STI committee stuff to Jesse.
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fishnchips
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #43 on:
December 01, 2008, 07:05:35 PM »
being that the entire park trail is ravine after ravine, there is a natural character and life in the trail, it would never naturally be trail carpet. Even if there were no rocks there are a lot more natural twists and turns and we should at least try to unstraighten the lines we have forming.
I suppose you could pick a contour line and get rid of all elevation entirely. We could call it the Wissahickon Velodrome. Nice cute contour trail, flat as a pancake, with a couple of roly poly dipty doos to excite the weekend warriors.
Seriously, some people think that's exactly what Phase One Is, and Demo 1, and others. I happen to like both those trails a lot, and realize the limitations in those areas. I think they also both get better with time. But I don't think Demo 1 or Phase 1 should set a precident for the park.
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Kelly
Chuck U
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Posts: 274
Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #44 on:
December 01, 2008, 07:22:57 PM »
Agree, except if by naturally be trail carpet you mean a dirt trail without rocks. That trail surface is naturally what was there, dirt. Bringing rocks into this situation, while cool (and I am not arguing against) would be *unnatural*.
As for twists, the current line is way better than the line originally spec'd in this location in terms of your other goals. It turns way more and goes up and down way more than original layout. However, it was spec'd as a low trail and because of this if tends to follow the contour down to the creek. There will be others in this same section. They will be curvy. They will have elevation. They will have more of both those and mileage than is there currently.
I don't think *any* trail should be a rule for the park. They all should fall into their own place based on where they are.
IMO, it flows pretty well and feels pretty good given the goal and the location. You can pump the hell out of those roly poly dipty doos.
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Dmitri
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #45 on:
December 01, 2008, 07:27:12 PM »
Jess, why do you keep pushing this? Really? I want to understand.
At the site of that new trail, by the creek, there is an old road bed. Ed Stainton was putting the trail right at the road bed. It would've been STRAIGHT AND FLAT like forbidden. It wasn't in teh scope for this weekend to touch that part of the trail, but we got carried away and ended up moving the entire length of the trail up on the slope where is snakes up and down around the trees.
There will be a connector trail to go up to the old top trail to preserve the elevation gain. All said and done, there will more feet of trail and same if not more elevation gain.
Now, We all could've been enjoying it peacefully in few weeks, or we all could go look for our blood pressure medicine now.
Thank you, and good night.
dz
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dannmer
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #46 on:
December 01, 2008, 07:29:45 PM »
The low lying area next to the new trail is going to be turned into a wetland by the water department. Surveying work for this project took place this summer. This should help slow down water flow during storm events.
Most of the new trails in the Wissahickon will resemble Middle Run because there are not enough rocks in the top layer of the soil in most parts of the park. There are not enough rocks in the areas adjacent to newly constructed trails. If you walk through the woods off the main trails you will see rock outcroppings but few rocks lying on the surface. If you want rocky trails, someone has to locate rock, collect it, and transport it to the work site. In order to build the 200 foot retaining wall next to the Wise's Mill parking lot required many hours of rock collecting and much of the stone used was collected outside the park. Since we cannot use the rock in the streams and creeks, there is not enough rock in the park to texturize every new trail. There are many dry gullies adjacent to Forbidden Drive that are full of rocks but we probably can't use them since removing the rocks will make the gullies larger. Old structures and walls can't be used as a source of stone due to historical concerns.
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Chuck U
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #47 on:
December 01, 2008, 07:30:59 PM »
Calmer than you are dude....
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fishnchips
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #48 on:
December 02, 2008, 08:54:58 AM »
Why am I pushing this?
Because you have essentially just told us what we’re worried about, that you have every intention of building Middle Run.
I don’t' want Middle Run, and I don't want trail carpet. Some places, of course, fine, can't avoid it, but every project we do? no. I don't see any more rocks at Belmont, but there's a lot more life to the trails over there. We need to find the right balance, but thus far we have not found it.
Somewhere in this discussion some of you, Chuck, Dmitri, assumed I was still talking exclusively about the new trail. I'm not talking about the new trail. If you actually read what I wrote you see that I like the new trail, a lot. It's just a shame that a select few who were involved decided not to include the rest of us.
I’m not the greatest rider in the world, so what does it mean when we continually take places I can’t ride and turn them into places that I can? Did my skills suddenly improve overnight? Was it all because of loose rock? No, we laid a trail carpet. Only Demo 2, reclamation of an extremely old unsustainable trail, has sections that I can’t ride. I think Demo 2 is great, and I don’t’ see any loose rock. Come to think about it, most of those huge rocks that are there were not transported in, were they?
The main trail is not a natural trail and never was. Some of it probably at one time the closest thing to a road the area had. It was a guy at one mill finding line to another mill, or folks just looping up above the creek bed as we still do now. There is a ton of industrial and other waste all through the entire park; just look at the Coyle. None of that is natural, but it is part of the park, and there is no reason why we can’t take advantage of places like that, and not turn them into "Middle Run".
Some of the least used trails are some of the rockiest, go figure? I shouldn't have to point them out to you.
No rock? I know of two of the park's granite quarries! There's probably more.
Face it, you all don’t' realize that you have a style, a clique, an approach, that has alienated one of your biggest supporters, me. I can assure you, if I’m being alienated there are many others too. There is a pattern, which you guys are proving right here. And god forbid one of us dares to challenge any of you!
I can’t imagine it’s in any of your characters to exclude or alienate anyone, but that is what is happening. If this attitude and style continue PMBA will turn into an organization that supports only weekend warriors on sanitized trails. Don't tell me it's not happening, because it is.
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Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 08:59:38 AM by fishnchips
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Kelly
Chuck U
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Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Reply #49 on:
December 02, 2008, 09:57:07 AM »
Ok, lets examine the major projects and see. I'll go over what I can think of if anyone else knows more or feels differently, post it up.
A. New lower Wises Mill Trail: Meant to be a separate specifically low line. Area with no rocks, but already has one wood feature. Also has pumpable dirt features on most of it's finished section and some twistyness given it's goal. Runs along an existing upper trail that has one large section that is paved and covered with gravel....very little rock otherwise (even at the washout).
B. Hartwell Lane: Fix for a bad section. Upper part lost some rock but gained some more up and down stuff, that can be fun. Mid section went overboard a bit (IMO) but, still isn't drastically different from what it was. Lower section still uses the rocks. However, someone out of our control came at one point and removed a bunch of the loose rocks that were there (sucks, but not us).
C: EIT: Lots of roots and rocks were covered over on the section closest to the road. This is a whole other subject IMO, but lets say its not at all like middle run. The reroute part closer to the south end is ok and not drastically different from what was there. The gravel hill now has more rocks and is no longer smooth.
going out of order now...
D. Demo1: Replaced a section that was part a boring road and a part that was pretty fun but washed out down hill. Wasn't the best down hill in the park, IMO. Instead gave us what is arguably a fun and flowy contour trail that is unique in the park. Pretty smooth, but has some rocks and some log features (some of which are pretty large).
E. Livezey Lane: Slight reroute of rocky bermed out fall line. Upper section now with less loose rock, but still has rock. Also has more turning and some pumpable type bumps. Bottom section that was the rockiest is still there. Creek bed that was a mud hole is now a giant rock drain.
F. Demo2: Steep fall line that had loose rock. Now a series of rock steps and armor. Challenging. Some argue not a good flow, some like it.
G. Kitchens Lane: Fall line washout that was often muddy. Top section has a few less rocks but it is now normally dry. Also has more turns. Mid section has rock armoring. Bottom, rockiest section, is the same.
H. Gorgas: Fall line trail and streets department run off mess. Big problems here from water off the bridge above. The current solution still has rocks, though less loose ones. Has a pretty fun flow IMO. Upper section reroute is both twistier and tighter than original section. Also has a berm and lots of rock armor.
I. Janette St: Some water control was added here. It removed some rocks, but added some pump type stuff and left large rock sections alone.
J. Coil: Stuff here that we wont be able to do on the main trail (at least not to the same scale). Between these there is lots of smooth dirt single track however. Not yet 100% sustainable.
I'm probably forgetting something.....
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Dmitri
Platinum Member
Addict
Posts: 900
Re: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
«
Reply #50 on:
December 02, 2008, 10:13:47 AM »
The point, Jesse, is that you only really see rocky sections in the park where the trail is badly eroded more than 2-3' (sometimes 5-6') deep. Wherever the trail is close or still on the old surface, there is relatively few and far apart rocks.
Yes, there is plenty of the rock down bellow, you said it yourself, it was a
QUARY
. Would you like us to strip the top soil, vegetation and quary the park to extract rock?
We are not removing any rocks. Where they are already in the trail and the trail is being repaired in place, we will incorporate the existing rock. Wherever the new trail has to be cut, there is no rock, unless we quary that section. And even in those sections we do consider bringing some rock. For example EIT, and, yes, Demo II. There was already some rock there, because it was eroded, in essence quaried for rock, but even at that there was not enough
natural
rock there to build all those fetures/terraces. Even at Demo II there was outside rock brought in, because we ran out of rock during construction.
We are not turning Wiss into anything it not already. If anything, we are making it to be what it is, naturally. Sorry if it's not up to your liking that naturally the White Clay and Wiss geology is somewhat similar. Mother nature tricked you. Or was it people who built bad trails and all the houses around the park causing erosion and changing the face of the park?
Fact checking is a fun game.
dz
PS And yes, I'm bummed as the next guy to have to give up the technical hard stuff. That is why we are trying to get involved and address every step as much as possible. Going back to all the sites Chuck listed, Kitchens, Hartwell, Livezey, Gorgas, EIT, if it wasn't for PMBA TMD folks involvement, arguing, advocating and working at them, they would be filled in and done in a very different way. At every one of those sites, the preservation of rocky technical parts is due to the efforts of PMBA TMD crew and volunteers. If it was solely up to FOW and FPC folks those sections would've been just filled in.
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I crash therefore I am!
dannmer
Platinum Member
Newbie