New trail by Wises Mill Rd......
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Author Topic: New trail by Wises Mill Rd......  (Read 1490 times)
Chuck U
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« on: November 30, 2008, 12:56:36 PM »
Ok...there seems to be questions and concerns about this new trail between Wises Mill Rd. and the small creek crossing just north of there.  I will write what I know as I had questions about it as well when I first noticed the flags and work being done there.  I *think* I have a solid understanding of what is going on there and what will be going on in the future.

First...this trail is now easy to notice from the creek crossing looking back towards Wises Mill.   As of now you can also notice this about 100ft from the gate at Wises Mill.  From there it currently looks like a mowed path off towards the right.  This project was started by FOW as project for Ed Stanton and some other high school volunteers to work on.   They made some errors in terms of design for sustainability so a small crew went out on Friday to handle the updates and repairs.   There were also a few other times when PMBA members were asked to help out with things Ed and crew did not have the tools to handle.

This trail is a low trail but *will not* replace the upper main trail.    FOW is working on a bridge crossing at the creek that this new trail will use.   If you have seen the steel beams on the upper trail, they are for the construction of this bridge.  Eventually, the old upper trail will cross the creek much further up the hill.  The two will then meet up again on the other side of the creek (Summit Ave. side).   This will close the steep washout hill on the south side of the creek.  Finally, there will most likely be a connector trail to link the two on the Wises Mill side of the creek.

These trails are not laid out as of yet and will be future projects.   We will end up with more trail mileage and elevation in the end.  So, once again the new trail is not a main trail replacement!  It is however, really fun if you ride it from Wises Mill down hill to the creek.  Use cation however, because the Wises Mill end is not 100% completed.

If anyone has any questions, this should be the place to ask em!

-Chuck
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fishnchips
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2008, 02:16:46 PM »
Chuck, thanks for the info. It's nice to have a discussion on the trail, but first, it’s after the fact. I like a lot of what I see, but that’s not the point. The point few who were involved didn't bother anyone else.

To start, I have a huge problem with Ed and a bunch of high school kids cutting in trails with no direction. All PMBA members and park users should have a problem with that too. Actually, I have a problem with any of us doing it without telling the rest. We have some experienced people, but I don’t see any professional trail builders among us; not even close. The whole project, start to finish, has been gone about in the wrong way. Just ask Lou; he’s our president and on the STI committee, and only found out about the trail work on Wednesday with no chance to change plans or get involved.

I'm very proud of everyone's work; I'm not criticizing effort.  Ed, for one, has put countless hours into the park. His carpentry skills are legendary, and his devotion unsurpassed. But I sure wish he’d use his expertise to take care of the Gorgas lane wooden bridge that’s about to collapse than to blaze a new trail like Lewis and Clark, with children in tow.

I’m the only one of us who has never missed a single PMBA TMD day. So when I’m on the website during the holiday telling people about rides, inviting them to join me at the movies or to hang out at the Keswick Tavern with Jamie, or to join Jon Pearce Friday ride at Fair Hill... And during all this, for none of my fellow PMBA buddies to bother mentioning the project, well that pisses me off. There is no explanation for it, so no one should try. If had been this only time this had happened, that’s one thing, but this is part of a pattern. And forget how I feel about it; most others who may have had an idea, concern or desire to help, don’t even know about it.

I may not be an “expert” like some think are, but I see some big issues with the trail. Maybe they considered them, maybe they didn’t. Either way, this project should have involved the rest of us.

Sometime next week I’m going to go off with some ballet dancers and a ditch witch and cut in some new trail. You guys are going to love it  Grin
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 02:19:05 PM by fishnchips » Logged
Kelly
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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2008, 02:26:18 PM »
Quote from: fishnchips on November 30, 2008, 02:16:46 PM
Sometime next week I’m going to go off with some ballet dancers and a ditch witch and cut in some new trail. You guys are going to love it  Grin

That's awesome that you invited Fletcher.
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2008, 02:31:54 PM »
There is an official PMBA trail committee, and we interface with FOW and FPC. We don't control them. Complain to FOW; we did not start the project, but were asked to help fix and finish it.
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Chuck U
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2008, 02:32:24 PM »
I agree with you about that being cut in poorly the first time and its the main reason I know anything about this to begin with.   They should have had better direction, but I also understand the desire to give the volunteers something to do.  And they can't give the kids power tools to build bridges, sadly.  FWIW, the kids did a much better job after some direction.   It was the early work that was the main problem.  They were out more than once and I understand they will be back.  I don't think this will be a problem in the future, just part of the learning process.

Also, while it's awesome that you are a huge help with TMDs, we shouldn't talk down to other volunteers just because they don't have perfect attendance.

What specific issues do you have with the trail itself.  This is not a finished product, so input can still be added.  I have issues with the section closest to Wises Mill, but this is not completed yet.   I do not know the schedule for further work, though I was planning to do very minor touch up that we left unfinished on Friday.  I'm pretty sure the students will be back to touch up the rest.

-Chuck
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jomissa
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2008, 02:45:20 PM »
is there a way to not use the ditch witch?  overall much of the trail work is pretty nice.  Personally,  i wish the trails could be a bit more "natural" looking and not look like the were cleared and goomed to be a freeway with a machine.  if they were dug out by hand would the builders not be inclined to make them so wide and would they not follow the contour of the land with a bit more of a natural grade?
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Chuck U
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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2008, 02:54:46 PM »
I have the same concerns.   Part of this was by hand and part by ditch witch.  Keep in mind this is narrower for the most part than the 5ft that some have called for (fpc).   Also, when bench cutting by hand or by machine, the trail looks way wider at first because of the disturbed up slope and down slope.    This will grow back in.   We tried to cover some of this area over and it should be something for the students to further work on.

But yeah, I am all for make these as narrow as possible and I have stated the same concerns to others many times.    Another problem with this area is the top layer of soil is VERY organic.  So it would make for an crappy trail and very long curing time at first.   So it's a balancing act.   I think this one will grow in to feel natural once its 100% completed.  The tread should be pretty narrow for the most part.

As for rocks, we found very few here and actually had to bring many in to armor some sections.   More would be cool, but it's not naturally happening in this area of the park.   Also, we get complaints from some environmentalist types when we start pulling lots of rocks from creek beds, etc.

Edit:  Narrow shouldn't just be a MTBer goal either, IMO.  It means less disturbance of the forest and a more natural experience.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 02:57:44 PM by Chuck U » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2008, 02:55:08 PM »
The bottom line is that the FOW SHOULD have the courtesy to tell us of any of their plans to build new multi-user trails because we have invested so much time and energy in the park, and our collective group is gathering lot of valuable experience in proper trail building.

Chuck is right that this is a learning experience, but this should be their (FOW) policy now, and I plan to bring this up at the December FOW STI Committee meeting. Even if they don’t want our help they should advise us as to what is going on and we should have a right to look at the plans before they start. This is a perfect case in point; they contacted us after the fact and asked us to help clean up their errors.

Additionally, all of our members should be told by those of us in charge as to what is going on. All supporting PMBA members have a right to know ahead of time what the club is doing and how our resources are being spent and used. That way everyone feels involved and will continue to donate their valuable time and money.

Now as soon as this rain crap stops I will go ride on said trail and lay my tracks!!!
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fishnchips
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« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2008, 03:39:20 PM »
Quote from: Chuck U on November 30, 2008, 02:32:24 PM

Also, while it's awesome that you are a huge help with TMDs, we shouldn't talk down to other volunteers just because they don't have perfect attendance.


Chuck, in what possible way did I talk down other volunteers because I dare to mention my record? All I'm saying is that if I'm being ignored then so are many others. You don't feel let down because you weren't ignored. I, on the other hand, feel very let down. It's part of a pattern and I'm tried of it.

If FOW and PMBA don't care about the opinions of their most ardent supporters than who do they care about? And if you all don't sense an elitist problem here than perhaps it's because you're a part of the problem too. How about you all stop justifying what happened start thinking about how to correct it in the future?

Neil, I can guarantee you if there was any mention of a Trail Committee at the last general meeting than I put my hand up for it. Though isn't it obvious, from my record, that I'd want to be involved? As it happens, thus far, I've seen no mention of any of the new committees.

Jomissa, not that I am thinking about this particular trail, I wanted to mention that I agree with you and have been concerned in the past able our style, or what I call "trail carpet". I'm reasonably confident that over time these trails will grown in and look more natural, and Ideally you'd let any new trail sit for a year before use. But I still think we could do a more to keep the Wiss flavor within a new sustainable trail.

Thanks Lou, I'm glad one of us thinks the rest of us matter.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 03:50:51 PM by fishnchips » Logged
Kelly
Chuck U
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« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2008, 03:58:41 PM »
IMO, your record shouldn't even be part of this conversation...you brought it up in live chat as well.  We are all members, no one should expect different treatment because they have the most TM time or donate the most money.   If that's not what you meant, my mistake.

What is the pattern you speak of though?  Many of us do very small TM projects that only require a couple of people.   I see this as functional and allows for the small details to get attention that otherwise get over looked.   This specific project was large but was supposed to be non-pmba.  This changed, mistakes were made.

I am sorry you are upset. 

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fishnchips
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2008, 04:30:43 PM »
Look Chuck, I'm proud of my record, and if I dare to mention it that's my prerogative. You don't like it, too bad. When at times others forget my commitment, I won't hesitate remind them. If you had been ingnored I would hope you'd remind us too.

As far as pattern, yes, when you've demonstrated your commitment, and you've asked to be involved, and often you're not involved, than that's a pattern. Put it this way; a major trail project takes place and Lou, PMBA president and STI committee member, and myself, a dedicated volunteer, hear nothing about it. I'm not surprised, Why? Because the pattern has been forming for something this to happen. I'm doing my best to break the pattern. It would behoove you to stop fighting with me and take my word for it. Of course you don't see it when you're on the inside. 

By the way, they started a PMBA 29er SingleSpeed Committee, oh snap!; you're not meant to know about it Shocked
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 04:34:37 PM by fishnchips » Logged
Kelly
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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2008, 04:50:09 PM »
clearly the fish is a bit upset.

i will continue to keep my tarnished record of stirring up the shiznett.  The "pattern" is interesting.  I cant speak for the emergence of such a thing yet it makes sense.  I do get abit concerned when i see flags up now.  But, the flags serve a purpose...they now alert us to where the new trails will be, right?  If thats the case i am FOR the flagging because in some spots new trails will be blazed.

Im not sure if ayone has made their way to ringwood lately but there are some really nice sections of NEW trail there that wind up and down slopes and across the terrain.  What I'd like to see are more switchbacks (long ones even) that dont make a straight shot up, down, or along a contour.  The new trail at ringwood (you'd ever find it if i tried) was buolt by a few people over a period of months by hand.  It is narrow and when first built so hidden that i literally stumbled onto it when the cut was loamy and new.  Its cured now and AWESOME.  it took a lot of effort but it is really exciting and challenging trail.  OH- did i mention it was poached and totally illegal!  that was another issue that North jersey riders, like pmba, have been dealing with in their early years and before pmba for example when new trail was blazed. 

I agree with LOU on the FOW.  Messing up trails and calling PMBA in is not the mission of PMBA.  I am sure the FOW will understand if PMBA states its case in the right way.

PS.  I picked up a lot of trash in the park this weekend on friday and sat while riding.  Including demo trail signs that had been ripped off and torn.  Garbage seems to be piling up in the park.  when you are out on a ride pick up a can or bottle or something that does not have poop or snot on it.  itll make the park a nicer place.

 
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Chuck U
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2008, 05:02:09 PM »
Your record is excellent.  You should be proud.  But using it as a reason someone should listen to you has no place in this thread....as you speak of elitism no less.

A pattern takes more than one example.   You speaking in general terms about this being a pattern means to me you might be talking about me.  I'm trying to clear up if you have a problem with the small projects I have been involved with, or something else?  I am only on the "inside" of this specific project because a few of us questioned what was going on when the project started.

PS: If it makes you feel any more comfortable with your imaginary "SS29er your not invited club", this trail was only worked on by about ~30% SS 29er riders.   Grin
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 07:06:55 PM by Chuck U » Logged
fishnchips
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2008, 05:25:40 PM »
Paperwork will be ready for the new table master in Jan. You all can breathe a sigh of relief and attack with trails with abandon. Peace out
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Kelly
Chuck U
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2008, 05:26:30 PM »
Quote from: jomissa on November 30, 2008, 04:50:09 PM
i will continue to keep my tarnished record of stirring up the shiznett. 

Keep stirring.   Grin

As for PMBA bailing out FOW, that's not really accurate.  The basic idea was a trail that used the old road bed that is along the run off ravine there.   Once the project started they knew as much as anyone else that it sucked and needed to be resolved.  They are with us more than most people think.




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epic rider
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2008, 06:40:29 PM »
I guess they pulled the steel beems up the trail?  and thats why the logs & rocks thats made the down hill to Wises Mill a cool
section,  now it's " trail carpet" ( nice term I like it ) , will this piece of trail be fixed or this is it when done?
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Chuck U
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2008, 06:57:23 PM »
If you are talking about the one log feature on the Wises Mill side then, yes it was removed to get the beams in.   This was done by FPC, who delivered the beams, from what I understand.   Win some lose some.  Most of that can be fixed and maybe changed for the better.  I'm guessing more materials need to be brought in by vehicle.

That downhill section is interesting.  It's actually paved under all that gravel from a road long ago.  Because of this, it's limiting what you can do with the trail surface itself, besides tearing up the pavement.  But the pavement is keeping it from washing out, being a fall line.....
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Chuck U
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2008, 07:12:22 PM »
Lou wasn't this project discussed at one or more of the STI committee meetings?
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2008, 07:54:12 PM »
I personally feel this public rant is completely out of line. What a way to say "Thanks" to those who worked on this trail. And I'm not just talking about the few of us in PMBA who were there on Friday, I'm talking about the high school kids who got to be outside and work in the dirt and do something they've never done before. They need to be praised for thier efforts not told they should not have been there because the mountainbikers were not asked first. If we are lucky, maybe some of them will make to one of our official trail maintenance days. I sure hope so. Our next official and publically announced TMD will be in January.

This work done on Friday was not fully supported. There were no revisions for a large crew. No food or water, no coffee. No sign in sheet. This is one reason why the crew was so small. It has nothing to do with "elitist" or "Patterns". No ballet dancers were used during construction. But there were a few singlespeeders, so I guess that's close enough.

The log feature was removed by FPC to get the bridge material on site.

PMBA was not "bailing out" FOW. We are partners and we work together. If anyone has any questions on how they can get involved with the trail committee please reach me at tomcoyle1@gmail.com
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Chuck U
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2008, 08:05:55 PM »
I can't spin on my toes even if I wear tight pants...  Huh
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epic rider
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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2008, 08:18:03 PM »
Chuck, did the beams come from the otherside of Valley Green where the bridge washed out a few
years ago?
Quote from: Chuck U on November 30, 2008, 06:57:23 PM
    

That downhill section is interesting.  It's actually paved under all that gravel from a road long ago. 
 

a road ? where did that go to ?
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Chuck U
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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2008, 08:28:02 PM »
I'm pretty sure the road was a driveway for a house that was up that way, but I'm not 100% sure.  There is actually another roadbed down by the new trail.  The initial plan was going to use it as the trail, but it is flat, straight, and boring.  No go we said.   If you check out the new trail you can see where some clearing was done between the new trail and drainage ravine, along that old road bed.

The beams are recycled from somewhere but I don't know for sure if it was from that washed out bridge.  Tom?  Dmitri? 

Lot's of old stuff around there that I don't know the history of...
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epic rider
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2008, 08:56:01 PM »
there were beams laying on the other side where you crossed the stream, I thought they brought them around to reuse.
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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2008, 11:03:06 PM »
Several points:

I believe that the steel beams are the same ones that have been lying near the washed out bridge at Cresheim Creek on the Orange Trail. Some of the beams may have been used on the new bridge near the Hartwell Lane work site.

I personally told more than a few PMBA members, including PMBA board members, about Ed's plans for a trail reroute and a bridge to cross the stream. I am sure that Ed got approval from the FOW trail committee and the Park Commission to do this work. Perhaps there was not enough outreach done by the FOW to inform interested stakeholders but it doesn't sound like a big deal to me.

The reason why new trails have a groomed appearance is that in many parts of the Wissahickon the top levels of the soil contain little or no rock. Only when you remove several feet of soil do you encounter rock. If you travel off the established trails and walk through the woods you see occasional rock outcroppings but few rocks lying on the ground. During the Demo 2 project, the ground surrounding the trail was stripped bare of surface rocks. Rocks are common in steams and places where water has eroded the trails or hillsides. It is against EPA regulations to remove rocks from rivers, streams, and creeks. It is an unfortunate fact that the STI project will result in smoother trails. It would be great to create some French Creek style rock gardens as an alternative line during future projects. Perhaps the trails that run along Lincoln Drive behind the police station could be a good place to introduce some rock gardens. These trails have relatively few users and therefore fewer people to complain about MTB bike specific features.


I don't think that it is fair to complain about what Ed and the Structure Committee decide to work on. There are a lot of things to fix in the park and a lot of time and effort has been spent this fall repairing the structure near Thomas Mill Road that was damaged in a fire. If people are concerned about the condition of the wooden bridge near Gorgas Lane, I would encourage them to contact the Park Commission. Call District 3 (215-685-2576) and leave a message or stop by  District 3 and talk to someone in the office. Don't depend on other people to notice and fix problems.

Switchbacks are generally avoided because dogs off the leash, hikers, and lazy riders tend to short cut the switchback and you end up with another unsustainable fall line trail. A switchback would be used in an area where there is a barrier to short cutting.

The city of Philadelphia has an abundant supply of tight, twisty, rooty singletrack. Belmont has miles of great singletrack and Pennypack has sections that are tighter and more challenging than anything at Belmont. If you include the doubletrack in Lorimer Park it is easy to do a 25+ mile ride at Pennypack without riding the same trail twice. The STI plan calls for five foot wide trails and that is what you are going to get. You are not going to get 18 inch wide trails. Go to Belmont or Pennypack if you want narrow trails.
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