Philadelphia Mountain Biking Association - Forums

Check out this article in the local Roxborough/Manaynk newspaper! They mention a bike trail as one of the alternative uses, which is sweet. Please attend the 9/11 meeting if you can. Check homepage for details, under "upcoming events"

Here's the first page

Time to show support for our cause, one week, I plan on attending.

I will be there. 

I work as a freelance journalist for the Conshohocken Recorder and the News Gleaner in Northeast Philly, and I have put in word about the meeting and our presence.  I've been asked to cover the meeting for the Juianta Golf Course for the News Gleaner (couldn't take it because of grad. class), but I contacted the Rox. Review about the Walnut Lane meeting.  I am not sure if they will give me the assignment because of my affiliation with PMBA, but I know the editor will be sure to get someone down there to cover it.

Does anyone know the name of the councilman/ representative that was at last night's meeting.   I would like to write him a letter telling him MY opinion, because Unlike the rude pro-golf course representatives, my opinion was not considered.

If nothing else that meeting was entertaining.

Yea. It was good to see what we are up against. Despite all the yelling and basically the meeting falling apart; I left with a positive outlook on the situation. It's obvious they are very interested in building a bike park of some sort.

People just fear change. Golf is declining. Cycling is rising. Those are the facts.

I think we should all contact the councilman and let him know how we feel. This is only the first of many meetings I'm sure.

YEs I feel positive also. Everyone saw how belligerent those golf people were. But I understand their position, however the truth hurts sometimes... Anyway, my brother Paul spoke to the councilman and got his card. We will post his info here. We are also going to set a meeting with him face to face and tell him about us and what we are looking to achieve. He told Paul point blank, "I will find you a place for the bike park." Now he is a politician and was working the crowd but we are gonna take him to task... Two other real important points are that Mark Focht, Executive Director of FPC, and Mayor Nutter are 100% for a bike park. They are two people who we need and appreciate to have on our side. Let the games begin...

Good news.  How do you know this?

Don't worry I just know!  ;D Just kidding. Mark Focht said that point blank, and Nutter has been very vocal of his support of backing positive recreational opportunities for city residents, and I assume that he will embrace this with open arms. I will stake my presidency on it. But I have not heard him say those words, like I heard Mark say them. Rob Krotee and I met him last year at Bike Philly and introduced ourselves to him so I guess we are gonna have to try and meet with him and get him to commit.

That's not sayin much  ::)

We all work very hard to make the trails better for everybody and it does not go unnoticed. It would be 100% wrong for us to work as hard as we do, and not get something in return. The meeting was a success for us.

It is also important to remember that the politician was really working the crowd (anyone know if he is up for re-election this year - it would be good to find that out).  He was promising a lot things that I know he can't produce, such as money toward a marketing plan for the golf course.  There is no way he'll get that, especially if you read today's article in the Inquirer:

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080912_Nutter_warns_of_budget_cuts__possible_layoffs.html

The city has major budget issues, and the park system is underfunded as it is.  To resurrect that golf course those people screaming last night will have to organize and do it themselves.  They can't rely on the city government to do it.  If you look at us and FOW, we put in the time to do trail work and raise money to push our mission.  The government has so many things on their plate that we as citizens and users have to organize and handle things ourselves.  One lady last night, screamed out "use tax payers money to fix the course."  I felt like turning and asking her if it would be alright to raise her property taxes -  she may have had a different answer. 

I have only been a PMBA member a short-tme, but I have already seen just how fast this group has organized and grown in just a couple of years.  That kind of organization will mean a lot when the ultimate decision is made.  The city and FPC seem to really want to get this land into someone else's hands without selling it.  The more organized and efficient PMBA comes across, the more likely we will get what we want. 

Also, if an article is printed in a local newspaper it would be a good idea to try and submit an op-ed or Letter to the Editor.     

that's what I don't get, there's no money for this golf course, what do people want?
the city just to sell the land and have 200 homes be built ? they have 3 ideas what to do
and the peolpe just didn't want to hear any of it.     shame

Rumors only:

meeting was set up. Someone representing certain interests blanketed the neighborhood with flyers talking restaurants and motorbikes. Add to that some planted individuals not even from the community. They were able to silence everyone else by screaming and yelling and ultimately leading the councilman make a public commitment that 'this course is not going anywhere'.   

It was a travesty. I was both equally impressed and saddened by the councilman's actions; he was a consummate politician.

From what I understand the city does not lose money on the golf course, only the vendor loses money. But the city doesn't make money either.  I hear they can't find another tenant willing to assume the loss on a longer term lease. Another rumor is that the current vendor has other golf interests and even if this is not a winning proposition, indirectly it is. What does it mean? In my opinion it resulted in what we saw last night.

The presenters went about it in the wrong way, sure. But the three ideas they did briefly show looked liked they deserved consideration. All of them included a golf course, and the last one featured a full 18 hole golf course. That reason alone is proof that they were looking at all interests, even if they were guilty of not publicizing it enough. Remember, this was meant to be a preliminary meeting to show ideas and hear peoples thoughts. We got neither.

I was personally overwhelmed and saddened by the experience. Actually I couldn't stand it; I felt like those people assaulted me. They disturbed the peace. I believe in the exchange of ideas and the right to express your opinion, but not over others rights to to express theirs. What can I say? I guess it's a typical example of our democracy in inaction. It was certainly proof positive that I don't get out enough!

But I did walk out confident that many circles are interested in an MTB park, even some of the rabble rousers... so that was good.

Could someone please give a quick rundown of what exactly happened at the meeting?  I wasn't able to attend (and I think I missed a good show), but I'm interested in what's going on.  I get that there was a lot of screaming and yelling... but what was the outcome (if there was one) and what were some of the other ideas that were presented. 
Thanks! 

In a nutshell:

-They tried to have a civilized presentation about ideas. One of which was a bike park.
-Many angry people; some golfers and some were just misinformed residents that got the BS flyer, interupted the presentation to the point that it was pretty much falling apart
-Councilman stepped in, said a bunch of stuff to bring things to an end
-PMBA was there in force had a good chance to talk to some of the city officials once all the screamers left and it looks good for us.
 
We are working behind the scenes on our next move. So stay tuned.

Thanks Tom!  I hope to make at least one of these meetings, but family stuff takes up a lot of my time  ;D

Thanks to those who are working behind the scenes on this!  I appreciate your efforts... can't wait for my daughter to be old enough to enjoy the bike park! 

Here is my rundown:
The park commissioner started out by clearing up some rumors:  they did not sell the land, they are not building housing and they are not opening it to motorized dirt bikes (he said he hadn't heard that rumor before).

Then the consulting company tried to explain their evaluation of park geography, users, economics etc.  They were interuputed numerous times by some very irrate pro-golf course representatives.  Finally, they presented the three options for the Golf Course.  Like Jesse said, all three plans included a golf course; two had 9 hole courses and the final one had a 18-hole course.  One of the plans included a bike rental facility (badly needed in my opinon) and a BMX park.  Since there was a lot of yelling at this point, I did not get the full scope of the plans.  

The commissionier took the microphone apologized and said the plans would be available on the Fairmont Park website to review and they would have a user survey.  It was clear that an open discussion would be pointless.   Then the councilman took the microphone and stated the "the golf course will be saved"!  A large cheer went up... I sighed and needed to step out before resorting to yelling myself.  

A few people did manage to voice their opinions (Including one PMBA member)  but basically the meeting broke up.  

I think the biggest problem last night was how it was organized.  They should have had people file into seperate rooms to begin with (like 4 or 5 classrooms).  this way each room could have had a presentation and one that was easier to focus on, and then a small group discussion of ideas. 

Having a mob scene inside a gymnasium like that, and then telling people they have to break off into groups was a terrible idea.  It would have been more civil if we the groups were smaller. 

And seriously, when they recommended rebuilding a new golf course, and rebuilding and moving the baseball field, I couldn't believed the crowd booed.  Seriously, the said they would build a new course and get rid of that piece of garbage baseball field and build a new one.

That crowd was not willing to hear anything.

 

that was the crazy part , build a new field , a new course, a new club house , and the people scream and boo,
crazy stuff

While i did not see the flyer that was distributed, i think many people don't know the difference between bmx, mtb and dirt bikes. My guess is the motorized bit was simply a naive side-effect, not a concerted effort to deceive. Some ppl refer to mtb as dirt biking; others will assume this means motorized.

I also believe that Mark Focht is a total fool and has no clue how to deal with Community Meetings. For me, last night was as clear an indication that FPC needs a drastic and thorough overhaul. Assuming he reviewed the presentation beforehand, i don't see how this meeting could have been anything but the disaster that it was and he is a fool for wasting the money on the study which now will merely delay any kind of action.

By not promoting the event (beyond the Manayunk paper and another) and thus fueling all the rumors and conspiracy nut-jobs, caused the bulk of the audience to be angry when they walked into the door. Then proceeding with old, irrelevant, and partial data, like their 3-mile radius bs, clearly did only enrage ppl more. Clearly Focht and the consultants have no business assessing anything, let alone presenting it.

The golf course HAS been making money and has been solvent, btw. New leadership took over a year ago and they are doing OK. It just did not help that the data in the presentation stopped in 2006 fueling all this talk about them not making money. They do (my neighbor is friends with the ppl running the place).

What i don't quite get is why the golf course needs to be dismantled for a bike course to be built. I think the MTB and BMX community would be SO much better off getting a course built where you don't have to fight ppl for it. In other words, why not lobby for a course some place, perhaps around the perimeter or nearby or wherever, but not on the golf course itself. You will have enough work to do to get one built without having to deal with angry golfers.

Finally, my personal opinion is, while i don't play golf and certainly don't like what the place is doing to the park in terms of erosion, chemical runoff, etc., i do like the idea of it being a public place for people from Germantown, Mt Airy, Manayunk, Roxborough, etc. to play that cannot afford to join exclusive and expensive country clubs. I also think there are things that could be done to make it more solvent and serve the cmty better like applying for state and federal funding to use the facility to groom inner city kids in careers in golf (playing, maintenance, teaching, management, retail, etc.)

Again, i think the mtb/bmx cmty would be much better off fighting for a course without trying to take it from an established user group. It will only start fights which seem to nurture inaction. And of course, none of this negates the fact that this course could not be making more money to benefit themselves and the park.

The meeting last night was a stunning display peoples' ignorance and their need to voice (scream) their opinions despite not having all the facts.  It was unfortunate that we were not able fully explore the different proposals because of a few very inconsiderate individuals. 

I am fairly new to PMBA and am extremely pleased to see that we are taking the higher road and pursuing our interests through the proper channels as opposed to lowering our standards to a screaming match.

In response to the name of the Councilman:

Curtis Jones, Jr, 4th District

City Hall, Room 404
Philadelphia, PA 19107-3290
(215) 686-3416, (215) 686-3417
FAX: (215) 686-1934

Jan, that is why I think we walked away with some positive feeling even though it was such a fiasco. We may very well not end up with Diable on the 9th hole, but it does look like there is a good chance we'll end up with a bike park somewhere.

As far as the dude being a fool? Maybe so, but Einstein would have looked a fool had he had to present to that crowd.

Good point Jan about "fighting" the golfers for a part of their golf course. But please know that that was NEVER our thoughts or intention. We got approached by the consultants and they asked us if we would be interested in using a portion of the golf course, should the city decided to offer it to us, and make it a bike park. We would be idiots to tell them no. We said "absolutely" and we proceeded to make our case to them about the community benefits of a bike park. They told us up front that this was very preliminary and no decisions would be made for at least 6 months. We said no problem but still offered our information. Last night all we wanted to do was listen to what the consultants had to say. The irate people prevented us, well me, from hearing what the consultants had to say. We will never "fight" the golfers and try to take their land. That is between them and the city. However if all of a sudden the city comes to us and says "hey we have some property thats adjacent to the Wissahickon Park, would you like to use it as a bike park?" we would be fools to say no.  

Anyway, like Tom stated, there is a group of us that have been working on a bike park plan behind the scenes for quite a while. We are in the process of selecting numerous sites that would be conducive to a bike park and also working on the presentation which will need to be presented to numerous agencies for their comment and approvals, etc. This golf course deal just happened to appear so it kind of brought the bike park idea front and center, which is good. But there is still a lot of work to be done.

The light at the end of the tunnel is there. Just look at the numerous city bike parks in this country, like New York City and Seattle. Can you imagine....  

Obviously i hope you/we get a course somewhere. Hell, i might even try and and see if i can un-tear my shoulder with another spectacular crash.

Seriously though, i say Focht is a fool for his total lack in foreseeing last night's outcome and for supporting such a nonsense study. It is a shame that none of the proposals were even heard considering they might have made the course better for their users. In my opinion, a totally predictable outcome and therefore a waste of money to the consultants. If they had started with the proposals and left their nonsensical background for the q&a sessions, and made sure ppl were not angry before the mtg even got off, it would have gone off a lot better. Or at least their proposal options would have been heard.

Regardless the fact that mtb have earned a course by virtue of all you do/have-done, there are people that would use it and therefore appropriating land somewhere is warranted. This leaves the issues of how to pay for construction and whether the completion of a course could financially benefit FPC in the long term.

Does anyone have some links on these courses? How much space is needed, cost of construction, precedence of charging admission (rates?), average use of these facilities, maintenance required, etc?

There was a small core group of older man in the back, they did all the yelling. Of course they like a current situation, it costs them very little to golf and someone else is picking up the tab. That someone else is the rest of tax payers. Just like with social security, medicare etc. etc. Current users are exausting the funds with little care for the future, they are not going to be around to deal with the concequences....

And the politician was working the crowd for the popularity vote.

It was sad to see....

Just my $0.02
dz

Not to dispute you, and I have no data or proof one way or another, but just from a general common sense, I'd expect someone wanting to shut it down to find some data and claim that it's loosing money, and from someone who wants to keep it to find data and claim that it's making money. Just my $0.02

But in general, my feeling is that if the golf course was putting some coin into FPC and the city budget, they would not initiate any type of study or anything of this sort. So i have my doubts...

Again, I want to stress, this is just my personal inference, completely not founded on any proof or facts.


Agreed 200%!!!

Jan, our intention for attenting the meeting wasn't to advocate closing the course or pitting MTBers against golfers. But rather, in case the golf course was being closed or altered and it was freeing some land, to get in line as potential users and present us as positive group prepared to take over what's been freed. However, if it's not being closed, then we have no place, nor desire to advocate it's closing. We do not hate golfers, heck, I'm sure we have few avid golfers in our ranks ourselves.


dz

I was standing off to the side of them, they didn't care what was going to be said, they just wanted to yell. The best quote of the night was "shut-up and go home, leave us alone" , what do they think this is going to fix, the city will says OK they got us lets leave it alone. ?

If anyone has current numbers of how much money that place is making/losing, could you please post them up?  Honestly though. even if is loosing *some* money, it shouldn't be a reason to attack them.  Hell, we use the park all the time and while we give back our time/resources/money....I'm sure the park is not profitable for the city.  Budget crisis and all, fair is fair.

It should be said that we have to be very cautious about not coming off like we are trying to take that place away.  Not saying the yelling folks are right for acting like children, but they may have a point under all their stupid actions.  I'm sure a lot of MTBers would act similar (sadly) if the city came in with studies to change the use of the Wiss or other mtb areas.

IMO, while I would like to see a skills type area setup for bike, I also like having the golf course here.   I haven't played golf in years, but I think it's a nice feature to have here in Roxborough.  Be nice to see it stay in it's entirety, it adds to the neighborhood for many people.   So how much money is it losing?
 
Uh oh....I'm gonna get the evil eye for that last bit?   :o

You make a great point Chuck. It may seem as if we are trying to get rid of the golfers for our own use. But that really is not the case at all.

We are not being so assertive to get rid of the golf course, that decision was already made by the city. But if they shut down some (they wanna make it 9 holes so it's not really going away) of the course and land becomes available, we want to use the land for a skill park, and we feel we deserve our plan be considered due to the large amount of time and hard work we put into preserving the forest. Our dedication cannot be ignored.

I would love to see a 9 hole golf course stay in place here. One of the proposed plans calls for a brand new 9 hole course (and a bike park!). It would probably be a better course than what's there now.

Check out this link, article in the inquirer about Walnut Lane golf course opposition, I sent the guy who wrote it an e-mail explaining our side, in case he does a follow up some time.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/29232224.html (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/29232224.html)

Wow that was a pretty heated discussion at the bottom of that article.

i read the article and was dissapointed that they did not mention the mtb contingents part of the ...dialouge...

The survey and presentation are up on the FPC site..


http://fairmountpark.org/juniata_walnut_gc.asp (http://fairmountpark.org/juniata_walnut_gc.asp)

I just read the presentation and I filled out the survey. 

Option two sounds like the best one for us, plus I think it allows for a diversity of park users to have something to enjoy.  Just my 2 cents (sorry Dmitri for stealing your line).

Hopefully the next meeting they have will be more civilized.

yeah, I chose option 2 too.

me three. I hope all 150+ supporting members and further 300+ associate members do the same!

Me four!

Me five, err I mean two, umm I'm confused  ??? OK, you know what I'm sayin! THat is a cool study, especially the part where it says "mountain bike skills park!"