Philadelphia Mountain Biking Association - Forums

Just curious to hear what the plans are for this next step. Unfortunately I haven't been able to attend any meetings the past few months. Other than chatter on here, PMBA News Letter and local scuttle butt from the trail fairies, I haven’t heard too much.

PMBA’s News Letter talked about the re-route to begin soon and shutting down that section of the trail. Is that true? Does that mean their will be no way through that section for any trail user?

Thanks for the questions. First let me say that the old trail will NOT be closed until the new trail is completely built and ready to go. We would never consider closing a trail so that no users can pass. THat is pretty ridiculous.

Anyway, the next step is to do MORE planning out on the proposed route. There is a core group of people who have been planning this re-route for months, myself included, and every time we go out there the job gets bigger and bigger. This is good and bad. Good is that when this trail is completed, it will be like no other in the Wiss. Bad is that it will be a much larger project and we won't be rolling down the tread for a long time. This is due to the fact that the first official trail project under the STI (not a demo project) will begin in late June. We will need to focus our resources on that project which will take a month or two.

Sooooo, we have decided to focus most of the resources this Sat (5/17) on clearing sight lines throughout the park. This is a serious issue which leads to user conflicts, and we need to take care of it immediately. We will have a small crew of people doing more planning on the reroute so if you would like to take a look see and hear the what/why/how, etc. you can tag along.

See you all this Sat.

Lou, thanks for the speedy response  ;D  I would have been surprised to see the entire section closed to all users, so that's why I asked.

Lou, what/where is the first part of the STI?

From Bells Mills Rd. to Thomas Mill Rd. (covered bridge) on Chestnut Hill side of Wiss creek. All that constant slop and the boring flat/straight trail will be magically transformed into sweet single track! 

really? wow, I was thinking that project would be a long way off. It will be an interesting project...

Regarding the Golf course climb that we're going to close. As many of you understand, this trail needs to be closed because it is polluting the water shed of the park due to it's very high erosion. We understand that many riders like this hill due to it's difficulty climbing as well as it being fun to ride down. We hear ya, but you really have to look at the big picture and realize that the health of the park is more important.

That said, one of the reasons we are taking our time with this reroute is to make sure the new route is not only sustainable, but also very enjoyable for all to use, so it will be even better than the washed out gully that it is replacing. So we have been doing a lot of tweaking of the new line and it is shaping up to be a very sweet trail.

Couldn't agree more with that statement. Even this moring that section looked different from all the nasty weather we had in the last week. I was more concerned that access for that section was going to be closed for all trail users. Looking forward to the re-route :)

HAd a meeting today with the FOW staff in charge of the STI and this trail project has gotten so big now that it may have to fall under the STI, which is good because it will get funded, but bad because it will take until the end of 2009 until it is done. We may work on sections at different times and get them completed but do not expect to be rolling down this trail until late 2009. That's just the way it works unfortunately. This is all the more reason to pitch in and attend trail maintenance days to show our support. Believe me when I tell you that the FOW staff use our volunteer hours to promote the STI and prove that there is broad public support and this needs to get funded!

The longer the trail is exposed to erosion at the level it is at, as the approach of summer grows near,
 and  all the traffic increasing; large numbers of boots, tread, hoofs and stomps scraping at the trail
along with the down-pouring thunderstorms, there will be  ever increasing  damage over a short
period of time at an exponential rate.   

Do we have any other options or will it just be an extreme amount of man power
 and machinery needed to get the job done?$

If you look at the level of change that trail as incurred over the past year or less its not
difficult in the least to imagine what disaster the trail will succumb to by the end of this Aug...

Add this gully to the list of about 15 other ones. I can't believe that the FPC let the park get this bad. And they STILL are not doing much about it, thanks to our legislators. Wow, big surprise, the politicians are neglecting a precious resource that is good in so many ways and spening all our money on roads and parking garages. Pathetic!  >:(

Here'a another update on the state of this proposed reroute.

Since our studies are finding this to be a much bigger job than origianlly intended, it appears that we will be able to implement the complete plan to the STI and get it funded. This is good, but it also means there's a ton of footwork to do behind the scenes. I wish it was as easy as just showing with a big crew of fit mountainbikers armed with shovels and Mcleods and, Zap, done.

If it goes as perfectly as some would like it to go, we are going to open the new route and close the old route at about the same time. Some people involved do not wish for both routes to be open at the same time. Closing the old route is a very difficult task that involves heavy machinery to transport tons of fill to the site. I'm sure I don't have to explain to you all how expensive this can be. It's very expensive, which is the reason why we must have approved funding.

So please be patient, and rest assured there are many dedicated individuals working on this. At this time it's projected for 09. So by the time we get the funding the new route will be a masterpeice.

In the meantime, please be careful coming down that blind corner.

And watch your speed, to be able to make the turn after the bridge and go inside of the big tree, not on the outside, down the new shortcut, which is direct fall line....  :-\

thank you
dz

I hate to tell you D but both of those trails after the bridge (coming down) are fall line trails, and they both will be closed and rerouted. So it is really a mute point...

P.S. To those who are curious, I am just trying to keep this topic on subject of GCC. If the thread gets hijacked I will make some deletions. Also the topic brought up was very sensitive and I dont want any of you guys to implicate yourselves  ;D

it's good to be the king  ;D

Well I'm curious as to what was said?

Dmitri is right about the line around the tree. There should not be two lines going around a tree like that. Whoever started that line must not have had the skills to make the turn so they just went straight off the designated trail. It was a choke point, and a much need one at that because of the speed aquired off the wall ride. Of course we all know that going off the designated trail like that and creating a social trail should be avoided.

I am wondering if the line above the tree should maybe be made the designated line. It would be less skidding before the tree and it has a better sight line. It's also usually better to go high around trees to help protect the roots. We would lose a choke point, but really those wall rides should not drop you into such a tight spot like that to begin with. At any rate one of the lines around that tree should be closed. So is it better to try and make people skid after the unsafe wall ride or just let them go straight like they want to. If we vote to take the high line then the lower line should probably be closed off.

Thoughts? Questions. Any and all input is welcome. Just try not to "implicate" yourself.

I will keep it short, not to hijack the thread too much.
Lou, you're right, and I agree to some extent.
At the risk of being a purty pooper and kill joy, I would vote to closing the "new" shortcut, and retaining for time being the old gravel line inside the tree. And maybe introducing some rock or log choke point at the base of the wall ride before the bridge to keep the speeds down. That is a very dangerous spot. The fact that the new line was introduced, proves that people are flying down the hill so fast that they cannot make the turn safely, which begs the question, would they be able to stop/clow down safely if there is uphill traffic?

Both trails are fall line trails = True
Both trails will have to be closed and a re-route created = True
Old one, has been reinforced with gravel = True
New one is rouge = True
New one cuts into the hill side of golf course = True
New one adds more unsustainable tails = True
Closing yet another new unsustainable trail creates additional work later on = True
New one looks like crap = True
And so on...

What do we preach about not widening the trails and not creating shortcuts? ;-)

I'm done and am getting off my soap box.

dz

Blah, Blah, Blah. Wah, Wah Wah :'(  Go ahead and do it, but quit crying about it. And while you're out there, close the 50 other unsustainable trials and blind corners. Haha. I am just messing with you. Now this thread is officially hijacked and I will delete this after I give you a chance to read it. THis thread is supposed to be info pertaining to the GCC re-route project only. Not some position paper...

Actually, this is pertinent to the GCC reroute the more I think about it. We are most likely going to move that bridge down the hill about 50'-100' to line up with the new route. That was the latest consensus, and part of the reason why this project is so large. Soooooo, the area you guys are talking about will be gone anyway, but that won't happen until 2009. So go ahead and do what you guys think is right and you have officially signed up to take on this task. Excellent! When can we all expect this to happen? Please let us know.  :)

Well, at least we can say that the golf course area is a good example of what not to do when making a trail.    First too washed out....then too smooth and fast.   Too many berms to wash out the hill side....rouge routes around trees, blind turns.....choke points removed....choke points to be added....fall lines.....skids.....

:o

I figured that as the GCH was unsustainable what's the big deal with using it? But the problem is  that it will cost thousands of dollars to correct it, and the more we use it and the deeper and wider it gets, the more truckloads of fill and more cost it will be, (not taking into account the eco damage).

When I initially saw that rogue builder shaping the berms I figured it was no big deal. But really those enhanced berms are going to end up costing the SSI a lot more, perhaps even the entire donation of the RiV more. Anyone know the dude's address so we can send him a bill?

Of course, as Lou says, this no different than 50 other places in the park. But it does remind me of one real problem we can deal with: The upper trial leading north to Kitchen's lane. The original trail collapsed a couple years back during the major rain storms and a new trail was put in to the left down the side of the hill. But now the original trail is ridable, and meanwhile the new trail is essentially a fall line trail that is totally destroying the hillside with less than 3 years of use. I vote we close that trail now before it becomes a total disaster, and go back to the original unsustainable trail...

Is this another hijack?

I agree with Dmitri regarding his opinion above, I think the old line is the way to go for all of those reasons. I may have some time on Saturday morning if some folks want to spend a 1/2 hour or so closing the rogue line. Of course we'd have to go on the obligatory ride afterwards.

-pete

Jesse:

I think another problem aside from a sustainability issue with the GCC is that it's a complete and utter eyesore. It looks awful. Don't get me wrong, the berms are "fun", but I know for a fact that many many hikers see the hill as total destruction caused by MTBers, I've heard it and I can't say I disagree with them. On a multi-use trail with such high traffic that hill is *not* good for the cyclist image in the park.

-pete

Spot on, Pete!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!

dz

Not to say berms weren't there before but those huge ones on the GCH were constructed. I just wish I had known at the time because many of use saw the guy doing it and we could of put a stop to it or at least rained on his parade. It was always unsustainable, but now it is the premier symbol of the problems in the park. When you think about it the added berms have probably doubled the canyon volume and directly led to the new line.

the GCC/GCH (golf course hell) is the worst eroding section of the park, and needs immediate repairs, but at what cost??
the trail is in a spiral dive of unsustainability, and still hasn't reached its horrible low, and I hate the fact that Golfers are right next to it. One of the last things I want to see while riding a trail, regardless if it a beautiful sustainable trail, is to see GOLFERS while I'm riding. Where's my C-4?

Now I'm not against golf, I actually think it is a fun hobby,  I would rather ride where I don't see the playing, and In addition to riding the ugly, bobslead-mudslide of a eroding trail, I have to ride next to a nice trim green where putters are
trying to make par for the course, it is almost like the pretty golf course is making fun of me as I ride by, and it sickens me.

C "four!!"  .... " ok I got my ranting in to.. Soap box anyone!?"0

i think wohomever re did that climb into the even more unsustainable mess it is today deserves a bill.

or at least we should pry their eyes open with toothpicks for a 24 hour straight screeneing of the sus tainable trails video...

how the fuck did they thing removing all the vegetation off the walls of that gully to make "sweet berms" was a good idea?

i am all for a little rogue trail improvment here or there but for gods sake you gotta know what your doing (or at least use some common sense) first.

Heck Yea Max. THis is a good ole flaming, unfortunately I don't think those people (kids) read this. My brother Paul and I may have spotted those kids about a year ago. If I remember correctly, one of the dudes had huge dredlocks. I am sure these boys were hitting the peace pipe before they started to turn that washed out gully into a toboggan run for the Jamacian Bob Sled team, or anyone with a free ride rig... It is blasphemy!

I'm almost afraid to write on this thread, its been highjacked so many times I that all the ransom money was spent on coffee and donuts, its good that we all have differnt angles of looking at the same trail, seems like there are different camps all for solving the GCC, just think in a year or so, when we actually finish the reroute and make the Trail gods bow at our feet,  perhaps we will look back and see how it all came together.

We are fortunate, and responsible is some
way to have this trail on the STI, (ie. Our volunteer hours)
but I can't wait until its finish, ....