Philadelphia Mountain Biking Association - Forums

I knew this day would come; you can't be 240+lbs and riding a SS bike 800 miles in the Wiss and expect it to last forever.

Dos Niner broke in half on an uphill at about 2mph. I was standing and cranking and I thought the rear wheel had collapsed. But the frame had ripped in two at the weld of the chainstays and the BB. I was extremely lucky it wasn't a speedy down hill.

It was a used frame so not sure Salsa can replace it, though they may give a discount upgrade. I didn't want to put so many miles on it but I really loved the bike and my other bikes have been out of commission. Actually right now I'm bikeless, but I'll figure something out soon.

I was riding with my buddy Mike yesterday and we ran into Miko from Abington Wheelwright. I was showing off the bike and he said, "you are never going to break that frame, it's super strong, etc..."  Soon after it happened I called Mike and said, You remember what Miko said yesterday? Well, guess what? It's a little bit ironic!

Dmitri has been trying to find a strong SS chain and I was yabbing about how I've been riding the same drive chain for the last 800 miles with zero problems. SRAMS SS chain has a weird quicklink which is a tiny bit thicker than the rest of the chain and sometimes I could hear it hit the tensioner guide. The last couple of days I could hear it a lot, and when the bike ripped it in half I looked down and noticed that the one side of the quick link was not there; basically nothing was holding that link onto the rest of the chain. And yet after 800 miles, it still hadn't worn or failed! 

The frame though is another story... I'll post pictures in a bit. 

Two words...
Redline... Monocog...

Can't beat $450 for a complete bike, and I seriously doubt you'd break it
http://www.sagecycles.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BK06RL2901 (http://www.sagecycles.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BK06RL2901)

And you can just move over the fork and the lighter wheels from Dos-Niner, as well as other nice parts.

Alternatively, Salsa KM frame could be had for cheap too, given that you have every bit and piece and just need a frame that might be the way to go as well.

dz

PS Another thing to keep in mind, is that aluminum has fatigue life. I don't think it just sheered like that in one second, I would bet some money that it's been failing in that spot for a little while, developing micro and minor cracking. Just goes to show, that we all should be inspecting your frames and components regularly and closely.

I was gonna vote Surly Karate Monkey frame...

Salsa and Surly are both owned by QBP.  Salsa tends to be the lightweight division, surly the bomber.   Don't think you could break it.

D, I've seen the Redline's break at the headtube on MTBR (I know, I know...JRA)!   I'd probably stay away from the Jamis too, they are built light...even the steel one.

<...From what I've heard.....>

I think it was the weight of the bell that broke it though...   ;D

Rico, have some respect. Your like the paparazzi taking pics of Princess Diana in the back of the wrecked car!  ;D

I'll try to get some pictures at the end of the day; I'll have time; I won't be riding!

Unfortunately I really liked the softtail, and if there was one thing I thought the Dos Niner was missing, it was full suspension!

For the rigid SS masochists it may be hard to comprehend, but I really like the idea of Full Suspension 29er SS. With that tensioner I made it work on my first FS SS 26" bike, and I'm hoping it will on a 29er FS too.

The Dos Niner though really let me capture a bit of the nimble control that a lot of SS riders appreciate, while still offering comfort.  Both the Curtlo Epic and Ventana El Rey seem to be steel 29er softtails, but they are custom bikes beyond my budget.

I could go with a hardtail frame and a Thudbuster seatpost, which is not my first choice. Or I get another Dos Niner just for racing, inspect it daily, and loose 80 pounds.

DZ, I heard my crank making noise this season and I inspected the frame; all was fine. But the last couple of days I was hearing more creaks on my right side down stoke. I figured it was the crank again but in retrospect I no doubt had a crack forming in the right chainstay. I didn't feel any more flex than usual in the BB area though.

I apologize, later this evening I will go outside and gently play Taps on a trumpet.

Hey man, that totally sucks. At least you're alright, eh? Good luck and hopefully you'll be getting a new frame soon!

here ya go

That sucks

Eventually some bikes break!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNwmpLPhoHw

K

DAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMNNN........

that sucks man!

Is that another crack around the front of the seat tube joint too?

Interesting soft tail design for alum......

Good point Chuck... I didn't even think of that... Soft tail in alum?! WTF!!! Alum has fatigue and cannot bend too many times, so they put it into softail where it is supposed to bend?!?! No pivot...

I think it may be scandium. If that makes a difference.

This is true.  Think about this a lot next time you fly and have a window seat by the wing...   :o

I think scandium is alloyed with aluminum and makes it flexible and weldable. The flatter parts of the chanstays are design to flex with the suspension and I don't think they were the problem. The problem was the force of my foot on the crank and BB. In the previous two days I had climbed 3 different sections I'd never before made on an SS.

Interesting, if odd design.
http://bp3.blogger.com/_vQP-DMkG-5Y/Rm0mDMvsPcI/AAAAAAAAAhg/lGCh1dyzCvc/s1600-h/g-ted29erblue.jpg (http://bp3.blogger.com/_vQP-DMkG-5Y/Rm0mDMvsPcI/AAAAAAAAAhg/lGCh1dyzCvc/s1600-h/g-ted29erblue.jpg)

it's "soft-tail-ish" but just might be strong enough

dz

If we are going for soft tail...and fatigue life, then I'm voting for this http://www.jonesbikes.com/update/designtech/3d.html (http://www.jonesbikes.com/update/designtech/3d.html)  Obviously   ;D

those are some whicked designs. Keep 'em coming!

So basically what you're saying Jesse is that you ripped the frame apart with your sheer power. Pretty impressive...especially for the guy who was the first to respond to the girls ride.

Well there wasn't anybody else riding the bike, but I'd have to say it was a combination of sheer girth and power.  :o

Your bars are now looking like valiant antlers atop a fresh kill  ;D

hmmm, maybe the frame was hit by a ricochet over by Wises Mill?

The ventana el rey is AL, not steel - not custom either.  $pendy though.  Just get a ti Moots YBB and be done with the bike carnage.  Big boys have big bike bills.  Marin's doing a steel hardtail 29er singlespeed - ebb, switchable drops and cable stops should you want to switch to a 1x9 - put an Albert Bold Ti seat post on there and you've most of the bump abatement of your softtail.  I think your tenants rent just went up.

Sorry to hear about your bike Jess. If you are still in the market for a soft tail, maybe have a look at the Castellano Fango. Pretty cool chainstays, but it seems a bit on the lightweight side is you are brutal with your bikes.

http://www.castellanodesigns.com/fango.html

You already mentioned the Curto - I think Curtlo or Moots are probably your best bet for a 'burly' soft tail. Curtlo will be able to give you a custom steel tube set which will hopefully address the problem you had with the Salsa. Plus, it will probably be half the cost of the Moots.

I think I read somewhere that Walt (of Waltworks fame) thought soft tails were a bad idea - can't remember his reasoning though. With that in mind, here's a few more ideas, most already suggested above:

Hardtai + Ti seatpost, although I prefer the Eriksen Ti seatposts ;)

Hardtail + high volume tubless/low psi would probably get you in the range of plush offered by a soft tail.

Hardtail + thudbuster, a friend is running one with good success so far.

Good luck!

Jess I've said this to you many times. Buy a beefy freeride bike. Kona's, like the Coiler for example, are a good start since they're bomb proof. Come to the dark side.

.02

IIRC Max has an xl Santa Cruz Heckler frame looking for a good home - should fit you ok.  You won't hurt it.  Single pivot and super versatile in how it can be built up.

thanks for everybody's input. Some great ideas and and lots to consider. I'm going to send off pictures tomorrow and perhaps Salsa will take pity. Meanwhile I'm going to try Dmitri's rigid on Monday and see if I can live at least with a hardtail.

Karl, Sadly I still don't have tenants which means my bike budget doesn't exist. So for the moment I'm taking my only option which is to get the the Specialized Enduro running again. How's a singlespeed Enduro sound!

Good advice on the Heckler. Max has been tryin to unload that thing forever. Great bike! That would be perfect....you know, when you get some tenants.

Bad news, the Heckler left the building coupe of months ago...

dz

Dmitri, check this chingring out. The bike broke but the drivetrain never slipped

I have chainrings and cogs that look like that. I'd say your chain and the entire drivetrain were about 1,000% beyond dead. Yeah, it might've not slipped, but you were so close to folding those teeth over cos they are so harrow now. I've done that too.

There is more to healthy drivetrain than just "not slipping"  ;)

dz

PS Yes, Chuck, I bet good money that the pins/bushings are so worn that the gaps are way way way too big...

http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html (http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html)  !!

I'd be interested in you taking apart a link in the chain and seeing what the plates/bushings/pins look like.

It's a SRAM PC-1, and it's the only chain I've never broken. I break the geared bike chains all the time because of the lateral forces, but this chain did 800 miles, and the chainring was a lot older than that.

I am convinced the tensioner kept the drivetrain from failing a long time ago. However it was being worn it was doing so evenly.

I'll have to check it out. I guess I might have to start cleaning my bikes every now and then :P

Yeah, single speed with straight chainline and no dragging of the chain from sprocket to sprocket tends to not break chains.   And if you do, it's normally a sign of improper chain install or chain defect (rare).  However, a broken chain is not really a sign of chain wear.  Chain wear is from the pins, plates, bushings, and rollers wearing.  It causes the chain to effectively get longer which kills sprockets.  However, they will wear together as one, so they will work together until you change something.  Then they will mis-match, be loud as hell....and skip (although this is harder on a single speed).   The idea is to replace the chain after it gets to a certain wear to allow reuse and longer life of the sprockets. 

Or you can just run it forever and then replace everything.   Which is cheaper?  Depends on what components you use ($$).  Though stuff does run smother before it gets crazy wear like that.

The Sheldon link has a simple and accurate way to measure for chain wear with a ruler (at the bottom).....

Chuck is 100% right. Except I had broken master links on SRAM chains, just tearing the side plates into shreds, tho with master links there are large cutouts, so they are weaker.

And the ruler method doesn't work for the pin and roller wear. The center to center measurement of the pins doesn't change a lot (it takes a hell of an effort to literally stretch side plates) but the rollers wear out and effective distance inside changes.

There are simple and cheap checkers for that, like these:
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL605A00-Park+Cc-3+Chain+Checker.aspx (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL605A00-Park+Cc-3+Chain+Checker.aspx)
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL308A00-Progold+Chain+Gauge.aspx (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL308A00-Progold+Chain+Gauge.aspx)
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL401A05-Wippermann+Chain+Wear+Indicator.aspx (http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL401A05-Wippermann+Chain+Wear+Indicator.aspx)

Funny DZ, Chuck is %100 right except for everything he was wrong about !  ;D

I'm assuming I can use my digital calipers to check too? Or is it not the same kind of thing? The calipers are just much more versatile tool for the money and I already have one: http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_npmv=3&_trksid=m38&_nkw=stainless+steel+digital+caliper&_nd1=See-All-Categories

And here is where there is much disagrement....   ;)

The ruler method is excellent for pin/plate/bushing wear, but NOT roller wear.  However, many feel that chain checkers are garbage because roller wear is not as important, plus they exaggerate the measurement.  Because of this they measure many chains to be worn out LONG before they are.  Many times they will even measure new chains to be worn.

Chain wear is not stretching of the plates, it is largely pin/plate/bushing wear.  Yeah, the rollers wear too, but because they are pulled in the same direction from the cogs, it doesn't matter as much.

Another ruler method is to put an edge of a 12" ruler on the edge of a pin...measure over 12" and if that pin is peaking out half or more past the 12" mark...then its done.

 ;D

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=125344 (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=125344)

see that for more.   I know roadies don't know what they are talking about!   :P

That's it! You're expelled! Bringing up roadie in here...  :P

 ;)

Pins, bushings, plates wear unevenly, resulting in the rollers to making even contact with all the teeth, rsulting with the load concentrating on fewer teeth, increasing the speed of wear.
Regardless of how you measure and what wears, in my personal experience, as soon as there is enough "play" in the system (look at the pictures on Sheldon's page) the wear will skyrocket.

I have a Kick Ass Alum 17t cog that I put on without replacing really worn chain and the cog was COMPLETELY dead in 3 rides (about 100 miles)...

 8)

dz

I just wanted you guys to see that roadie keeps track of bushing wear with his calipers....   ;D  Wonder if he has a spread sheet....

Good News! (which may become fantastic news if it really happens)

Salsa says they are warranting the bike! I told them I wasn't the original owner and that I was using it as a SingleSpeed, but they say they'll still warranty it as long as I go to a Quality Bicycle Products, QBP dealer to get a RA number to return it!

anyone know of a Quality Bicycle Products, QBP dealer?

If I do get a replacement I will probably ask for the same bike again and use it strictly as a racing steed. Or if I get the guts to go with a hardtail I may ask them for the steel El Mariachi  or gear up a Momasita instead...

That rocks.  I'm pretty sure most shops deal with QBP as they are a huge distributor.....

Eggzactary! QBP is a distributor to 90% of the shops.

I suggest to go thru our sponsors, REI (not sure if they use QBP or do their own purchasing), Bucks County Bicycle Company ( I know they are a little out of the way, but Scott is a great guy and stepped up big time to support us in last month), or Guys

Other than that, any shop should be able to help

REI it is; thanks Karl!

I'm a bit confused because he says they'll warranty it, but also that I have to send it in where "they'll make a warranty decision", and at the end he says "do I want a replacement too". 

so I'm guessing is they might decide to re-weld it? Or is he saying, "do I want another one" thinking that perhaps I don't? Anyway, it's confusing.

I'll see if Karl can make the call for me and get the ball rolling before I fully quiz the Salsa dude.

TMI, brutha, TMI.......never give them too much information.  You're lucky that they are still going to replace under the warranty.  Some companies may want the original sales receipt, etc.

Great news, though Jess.  Hope you get the frame you want.

They do have to see and analyze the break for the decision whether to warrantee or not.
What he's asking if you want a bike while waiting for the decision.
The way it worked for me, they sent me a repalcement frame, but took my CC number and put "preliminary" charge on it for the price of the frame, sort of like they do when you use the CC for a deposite.
I shipped the broken frame back to them, and started riding the new one. Once they received the broken one and confirmed that it's warrantee replacement, the charge was removed from the CC.
But if they would've decided that it wasn't warrantable or there was a prorated warrantee, then appropriate charge would've been posted.

Sounds like that's what they are trying to do for you too.

dz

PS Better be upfront and honest. Glad you disclosed everything, Jess. Keeps the industry andcompanies more willing to work with us, customers, be more supporting and open to go extra mile, like in this case. I heard to omany stories of people abusing generous return/warrantee policies and turning companies bitter and ruining it for the rest of us.

Yeah, no doubt, thanks for the info.

 I had to tell them the truth because that's what I do ;D. But really, I couldn't very well say I got it new when I have no evidence of that, and I had to tell them it was SS because the pictures I took I couldn't edit that out without taking the crank off, which I hadn't gotten to yet.

But I didn't tell them everything; I didn't tell them I'm 250 lbs! Wait, that's a lie.  I'm on a diet now, so 249 lbs  :P

I'm not saying lie to them.  I am too honest as well, and would never try to scam a company to receive free merchandise.  I'm only saying, I might say anything unless they asked me.  Then I would have told them.   ;D

You're a monster Jess.  There's no way to re-weld that in good faith.  I sure hope they hook you up too b/c I don't want to explain to my boss why there's a honking charge that we're stuck with.   The folks at Salsa are a good crew so I think this will work out for all of us.  Too bad they aren't going to be at this year's Kenda Tire fest in Mass. 

Karl

I know what you mean Rico. i just thought it was best to lay it out to them

and Karl, yes, that worries me too! what if they are just welding it? I'd never feel safe even if it was safe...

what charge would you be stuck with? Also, do you want me to cover shipping? I was actually hoping (or dreaming) that you'd get compensated by them for dealing with the return, or at least an "ata boy".

 ;D Last night I went to REI and picked up the new fire orange Dos Niner! I wrote the guy from Salsa again and asked whether it was mine to keep. He hasn't gotten my bike in yet, but he said from the pictures he definitely thinks a warranty bike and therefore the new one is mine.  ;D

I don't plan to make it my daily Wiss bike, it'll be more of a  race machine. It sure looks awesome new, though not a color I'd pick on purpose! Here's a picture from their site:

Congrats, Jess.

That is one sweet ride!   ;D

Nice ride Jesse! That's only the second one of those I've seen! Which REI did you find that at? Marlton? 

Thanks people.

Rob, even though I bought it used Salsa approved it as a warranty and replaced it. Salsa stands behind their product so I have to give them solid props for that. Even used it's been a solid investment.

They haven't actually confirmed it as a warranty because they haven't got the bike back, but from my pictures they say it should be and sent me out the new one.

I had REI handle it all as they can do that with Salsa. Karl took care of it, made the calls etc. and they sent out the bike before they even received the broken one.

Karl can get a lot of specialty bikes for people though REI doesn't necessarily carry them on the floor. He's looking to expand their in-house offerings though; check out this thread (http://www.phillymtb.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,86/topic,581.msg5477/#msg5477).

I just built up the new frame today, 32x19, with most of my old stuff. I would like to race it on Sunday but I also want to ride it a bit just to make sure all is good... So far it feels just like the last one, except it's loud as hell!

I also got my geared bike rolling so hopefully that will be my primary bike now, and the Salsa I'll ride more sparingly.

Huh? Why not just ride it?

Glad you're getting that sorted out, that rocks!

-p

[/quote]
Huh? Why not just ride it?
[/quote]

From the day I bought it I thought I might break it if I rode it all the time, and sure enough I did. I planned the to use the last one sparingly, but I loved to ride it, and meanwhile my geared bike needed work. So this time I'm just not going to ride it into the ground everyday. I just don't believe a 250lb guy can hammer SingleSpeed on a 4lb frame, day after day, no matter what it's made out of.

Also, I've broken two gravity droppers, couple of handlebars, and all three of the previous bikes I've owned, and I'm strictly an XC rider. The only bike I haven't broken is my geared Enduro, but I still break a suspension bolt on it at least once a month. (I'll be riding it more often now I've got it going again.)

You brute!

i gotta agree with pete...

if you like it, ride it!

if they warrantied the last one they will probably warranty the next one  ;D

seriously, i was on my 3rd marin when i finally got a new bike...

a company like that will stand behind there sh!t, and that is good business if you want to have happy customers. plus, i think they would have told you if you shouldn't be doing what you were doing on that bike!

Yeah, I'm agreeing with both of you now too. I took the geared bike out yesterday with a new drive train, and broke the new chain in the first 20 minutes!

I will drop my reservations about riding the dos niner all the time, but I do want to ride the geared one more just for the sake of my knees and because I forgot how plush and nice it was as well. When the chain was working it felt like a luxury liner out there!

Jesse- you planning to ride Thursday at 5:30? I'm hoping to make it out this week..

Yeah, Thursday night's a go! Hope to have a few there again. Dan came last time too and we ended up picking up riders along the way for a total of about 10 of us. Please invite that other fellow too.

I'd like join the meetup group's Belmont ride tomorrow but I have to get some signs together for the RiV...