Philadelphia Mountain Biking Association - Forums

I was riding demo1 last night from VG to Wise mill (was slippery in few spots, took forbidden back) and crossed over.  On the slight climb by the apartments, I spot a one deer and then I see there are 6 of them in the field between apartments and wise mill.  I'm thinking, wow I've not seen ANY deer in like a whole month.  Then I see there are all eating corn or some yellow feed that's been laid out for them.

I'm wondering how many kill sites they set up around the park.  Definitely remove antlers and bushy tail when riding near 7901 apartments!!

That's just so they can drink beer and shoot deer from the balcony.....

I don't have a problem with eradicating the problem deer (though of course I'd rather they use contraception or move them than just kill them).

However, I am totally against the use of high power weapons anywhere near where people live. I'm not a ballistics expert, but I did spend six years in ordnance and I've fired a lot of weapons. Plus I've witnessed and participated in a lot of night firing with tracer rounds. There is one thing that is a fact; you can't always predict what a bullet will do.

The sharp shooter may shoot perfectly 999 times in a thousand, but that one time he makes a mistake, or the one time the bullet does something out of the ordinary, well, it's going to ricochet, and it's going to fly, and the shooter will have no control over it where it goes.

So the fact that they are laying out a killing field in that location is just outrageous! There's not one direction that is safe. You have the apartments on one side, Henry Ave on the other, and Wises Mill Rd., with VG patrons and employees coming in and out at all hours.

Plus you know when the hunter starts taking shots, he maybe gets one or two before they start scampering. But he's not going to want to settle for one or two, so he's going to be taking uncontrolled shots while the deer are moving off. This is pure speculation of course, but anyone stupid enough to set up in that location is sure to be taking other risks too.

Bows maybe, but high powered rifles, no way. I think FOW is making a big mistake by supporting any high powered weapon usage in the park.

Are they using rifles?  Can't even use them in DE for that reason.  A shot gun would be pretty safe, but might freak out people that hear it.

I'm going off what I remember them saying a few years back, that they had hired a sharp shooter. And I'm assuming the sharp shooter is using a rifle. He'd have to be super close with a shotgun I reckon? Though I guess it depends on the round. Either way, it's not something they should be doing at any hour in a popular city park.

I'm also a bit in shock because I often driven right there late at night to walk my dogs along Wises Mill, and I park by that gate. You can be sure I won't be doing that for a while.

Shotgun = pretty close
Bow = really close

My guess is something along those lines (don't know).  Deer in the part aren't that scared of people, so it would make it easy.  Especially setting up a feed area.

Warning: Nerd Alert, If you continue to read you may think I’m a geek!!! :o

A lot of variables when deciding what type of caliber and ammunition to shoot a deer. Any type of round will possibly ricochet if it hits a rock. Just simple physics.

A .22 caliber shot can travel up to a mile on a clear day. A 12 gauge slug (smooth bore shotgun) can travel up to 500 feet.

But, your standard hunting round isn’t an armor piercing round that's going to zip right through flesh. They're designed to "mushroom" upon impact and tumble inside a body cavity, creating as much damage as possible. You can have an exit wound, depending distance and angle of the shot, by that point the velocity is reduced.

I'd assume they're shooting at a close range. It's night time and they have to be using some type of thermal imaging to get a clear line of sight for the shot. If so, they're more than likely using a lower grain in the shot. I'd also assume they're shooting from an elevated position (tree stand) and they're shooting down into the ground and the valley, not from rim to rim. They have to be aware of the background, where they shot is more than likely going to go if they miss or it exits the body. With the baited spots the shooter has more control of the surroundings. 

This isn't the type of situation where Johnny Redneck from Pennsyltucky waited all year, to hunt 12 days, to blow his load on a herd of deer. This isn't a scenario of "If it's brown it's down". They probably take a few deer a night, stretched over 30+ days equals a successful cull, eliminating the pressure to take as more deer in a short period of time.


By law, in Pa you're allowed to hunt with in 300 feet (100 yards)  of a residence, but this isn't really hunting season.

I realize it's a slim chance, but if one of those bullets glances off a rock anything could happen, and it wouldn't matter what the bullet was made out of. There's no way every shot will be perfectly controlled. Also, we are talking less than 100yds from those apartments.

This has been going on for years, but I assumed it was taking place deeper into the woods. It just brings up a whole bunch of questions? Do they put the feed out the night before? Was the hunter already in the tree stand while bikers and trail users were nearby? Or does he try to sneak up the tree stand while the deer are feeding?

The location is everything. Why there? So you can just pull your truck up and start shooting? I bet you anything no tree stand was being used in that area either. It just sounds like laziness and convenience to do it there, and that does not bode well for any other aspect of the procedure.

I am a shooter and I reload my own ammo, both metalic and shotgun. I also participate in competition combat shooting, and have done alot of 100 to 200 shooting with a high-power .22, or a .223 AR-15 as most people know it as. So I get my 2 cents here.

They have hired a sharpshooter from New England area as a read a few years back (Maybe 10). If you notice sometime, there is salt-lick along in the woods, as the deer are driven to that. I am sure with the amount of non-NRA members in the diverse cultural area we have, numerous steps have been taken into account for safety.

I am sure the hunter knows his BACKROUND, or what is behind his target. And up to 100 yards, any skilled marksman can hit an target within 1/2 to 1 inch accuracy. With a night-vision scope, the bait, and probably being in a tree stand, UNLIKELY stray rounds are going to hit the soft ground to where the deer ar grazing, not a rocky backdrop. Plus, if he is using a silencer, that slows the velocity of the round, thus letting it travel less if a non-hit. And as mentioned before, the round probably is not a FMJ (Full Metal Jacket), but an expanding bullet that will extremely deform once it hits something. I.E: If it hits a rock by some remote chance, it isn't going to travel very far because it has become very deformed.

The hunter probably does not operate during a windy night, and as I read, does most of it around 1 or 2am, when you really do have the least amount of "friendlies" around.

Those poor little deers! Ummm, where do we go to get some vension?!?!?!??  8)

"Imagine you're a deer. You're prancing along. You get thirsty. You spot a little brook. You put your little deer lips down to the cool, clear water - BAM. A fuckin' bullet rips off part of your head. Your brains are lying on the ground in little bloody pieces. Now I ask ya, would you give a fuck what kind of pants the son-of-a-bitch who shot you was wearing? "

I love that from My Cousin Vinny.

I'm nominating Neil for PMBA Sergeant at Arms. 

And Rico - your delivery isn't nearly as compelling as Marisa Tomei wearing that little nightgown...

DrSaw, mtrostle,
For all we know now perhaps they were just doing a population study in that area. So I may be making assumptions as to what this guy is doing wrong, but you are both making assumptions as to what he is doing right.

If this was a hunt, there is no way to say that location is safe. It's impossible, and using that location indicts the whole process. That one decision tells me that this is Johnny Redneck from Pennsyltucky.

Soft ground where the animals are grazing? You've got to be kidding? You've been on TMD and you know this park has no shortage of rocks. In that section bedrock is exposed everywhere, not to mention the old building foundations and waste. That whole area has been used as a dump.

I'm sure the families that live in those apartments would go apesiht if they knew what was taking place just outside. There's 100 other safe locations in the park, and if halfloop had spotted the lured deer in one of them we wouldn't be having this discussion.

On a side note, anyway PMBA can get some of this Wissy venison for Jan to smoke up at the RitV?

Well, there it is, we're all guilty of making assumptions..............

I find it hard to believe that FOW doesn't have a large notice on their website stating the Deer Cull. I possibly overlooked it on their website, but it shouldn't be hard to locate. Other than the Notice on our website, and the conversations here, that's all I've heard to date.

I do have faith in FOW and their selection process for a certified sharp shooter. That being said, I honestly believe you're more likely to get shot in Kiladelphia by a random stray bullet than a shot ricocheting  off of bedrock.


I completely agree. If it does appear to be an unsafe location or just a location in question, then we should be asking FOW what's going on and the plan that was filed by the sharp shooter.


Had I known anyone would have been interested in some venison I would have keep some of my deer. Sorry guys, next year I'll save some meat.

I was finishing up a ride last night and exiting at Gorgas.  It's dark and I see some yellow/greenish reflection approaching me and I'm thinking it's a cat or some small animal.  THen I see it's some dude jogging and it's his sneakers reflective tape catching my light. Apparently he's just coming into the park and it's just about 8:00 pm.  I say 'Hi' as we pass but he's got an Ipod or something...then as an afterthought I want to mention the 'hunt' to him so I stop and yell back but he's gone around the corner already.

I'm mentioning this since just to point out that I guess there are some people who venture into the park either unaware of the hunt or ambivolent about it (probaby unaware).  He had no light or anything; at least his tee shirt was white I think and the earphones ;D

Ambivolent. For sure.

A trained hunter or shooter knows the difference between a runner, MTB'r, and even a dog. If anyone with any sense made this decision, then we don't have a wiskey drinkin', stupid hunter out there.

I probably feel safer biking in the Wissy during curfew hours than strolling Ridge ave running errands at the same time.

And I definitely have less fear about a deer going through my windshield on Henry ave because of the hunt.

And yes, I am am MTB'r and a card carrying member of the NRA. All shooters are not rednecks; we are professionals, doctors, accountants, etc. 

Do you think all hyper-liberal residents in the outlying areas of the Wissy would ALLOW anything but perfection when it came to picking the correct marksman?

FWIW, it was my understanding that the method used is bow and not rifle. Spot any stands near the feeding?

-pete

Im getting scared

Yeah I agree....Marisa Tomei  is HOT in "My Cousin Vinny"....


 :P

I heard he uses a rifle with silencer and shoots at close range.

Then again.. nobody has ever seen him.... he's like Colonel Flag.   He comes and goes like "the wind!"

I think the "hyper-liberal residents in the outlying areas of the Wissy" have no idea deer are being hunted less than 100yds from a block of apartments. If they did they'd be all over this like stink on deer crap.

It doesn't matter how you shake it, the choice of that location is a monumental mistake, if just in appearance alone.

And you're debating with someone on your side; I firmly believe in the right to bare arms and I support the culling of deer. What I don't support the brainless decision to hunt in that location; the lack of signs and all the other issues aside.

If you think about it, this decision (if it actually happened) could easily put the future of all Wissahickon hunts in jeopardy. So either you agree it's a poor choice or you're essentially against the deer being culled  :P

(http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/additional/large/office_space_kit_mat.jpg) ;)

Hey Chuck, how you coming along with those TPS reports?

From FOW:

In the fall of 2000, FPC convinced the State Legislature to pass a bill that required the Pennsylvania Game Commission to issue a sharpshooter permit to the City of Philadelphia within 30 days of application. In addition, interference with the cull was declared a felony.

If the PGC is involved, you can be ASSURED safety is the number ONE priority.

Pretty witty thread fellas. 

Two things: 1. does anybody know for sure that the feed/corn by the apartments is laid out for hunters or is it just that some little old lady at the apartments likes to look at deer out her window? and 2.  I reckon you have a better chance of one of your neighbors shooting you than a trained sharpshooter's errant round; at least I am more worried about my nieghbors, not the college girls out back, so much as the guy who shot his arrow through the window a few houses down from mine - said somebody bumped him while target shooting in the alley.  I love living in the yunk.

Who knows? Fortunately trained sharp shooters, policemen, and hunters never make mistakes.

Anyone game for the 7901 Balcony Skeet and Trail User Shoot this weekend?

Hikers 5pts,
Dog walkers 10pts (must hit dog as well).
Dog walkers off leash 20pts points
MTB riders, 30pts, as they are going fast.
Horse and rider, 50pts
Tree Hugger, 100pts
Deer 500pts.
SS rider, 1000pts.

...she is hot as hell in that movie. Especially when she is talking all the car stuff.

Dave Dannenberg sent me this email about the deer cull. He would have posted this himself but he lost his password.

Dan

"Facts: the bit about PGC having to issue the permit is true. The curfew is there for a reason. That said, the people running the cull would NEVER mistake a human being (even one on a bike) for a deer. The shooters are federal (USDA I think) people who do it for a living; I estimate that the risks of a person being shot in this endeavor are less than any of us being killed when we hit a deer on Henry Ave--a risk that is infinitesimal to begin with! You take a much greater risk every time you ride a bike, especially on the street, or as some posters said, when you walk certain neighborhoods late at night.
The ratio of shots fired to deer killed is pretty close to one to one; they know what ammo to use in populated areas, how to set up a proper back drop, etc. etc. No one is willing to risk a human life to cull deer in the Wissahickon, least of all FOW,  FPC, or USDA.

Contraception will not work in the Wissahickon under current conditions. Leaving aside the fact that giving contraception to the deer already there does not reduce the population by attrition for many years, there are too many deer that hide too well to inoculate all the females, and there are far far too many deer that infiltrate the Wissahickon from outside the Wissahickon to make sterilization of the does in the Wissahickon at any one time meaningful. At this time of year every doe is essentially three deer: herself and the two she is carrying. Sorry, those are the facts.

The cull is not undertaken because people like to kill animals. Personally I love deer: pretty to look at, tasty on the table. But in concentrations almost as destructive as locusts.

Dave"

The distance between Wises Mill Rd. and the multi-story 7901 balconies is about 127yds. . If the kill zone is in the center you're talking within 60 to 70 yds, and even closer to the pedestrian walk (which can't be seen) around the apts.

That's not a very Wises choice, even for the safest deer hunt on earth.

Every point I brought up was validated. I feel safer in the wood with a trained markman, than riding my bike on the street with soccer mom juggling a cell phone and a Snickers bar in a Chevy Suburban.

You're missing the point. It's a bad location for a shoot, it violates state laws, and it's just plain wrong to to hunt that close to a multi family residence.

I would even concede to your 'points' (if I hadn't already agreed with most of them from the start), except the location decision and the idea that this human being is infallible. And like it or not, the location decision indicts the whole process.

I've told Dannenberg in the past that I have no problem with the hunt, just the use of high powered weapons near where people live. I bought his points and FOW's decision then, and I buy it now.

What I don't buy is setting up the hunt 60yds outside an apt. complex. Dannenberg has not addressed that as yet, and frankly neither has anyone else.

Remember, this is a righty questioning this, not a lefty.

It doesn't violate state shoots.  A municipality can spersede state rules (look at the old way Philly delt with CCW's) sometimes.

Once again, a state dept., the PGC, ok'd this hunt, so how can it violate ste laws when the state gave the green light?

It does not.  First we don't know if they are shooting there.  Even if they are, we don't know what they are using.  We don't know how they would do it.  It is an open area and it also is down the hill a good bit from the apts....down the hill and farther away from the houses across henry.   And pretty far away from the two houses that are down wises.

Maybe they are ninjas?

It's the cats, watch out for the cats!!!!!

Having done night shooting, and with the reportes 1 to 1 shot to kill ratio, I still feel safer with this guy out there than most Philadelphia Policeman (sorry if there are any on PMBA) with hi-cap Glocks. How many times have your heard an officer unloading their whole clip at a sustect, wounding or killing innocent people, while only hitting the intended target once, if at all. Called "Spray-n-Pray".

I DOUBT the sharpshooter is using the same "Spray-n-Pray" methods some "trained" shooters use. Some of these trained marksmen are ex-military, and the accuracy in incredible. Even I could do what he is doing, but don't feel like freezing my n_uts off in a tree stand. My friend works for a high-end LE and military optics company, and you would be amazed at what you can see and how magnifies it can get. I DOUBT we have a Rambo out there.

If anyone has ever biked French Creek during hunting season, those are the weekend warriors of hunting. I NEVER go to French Creek on a Saturday durng slug season. Maybe bow or muzzle-loader.

I am stepping off my soapbox now.

We should have the first annual Wissy Biathlon. Climb the monster, then dismount to the prone position, and shoot a series of targets with an non-lethal weapon.

State law says you can't hunt within 150 yards of a dwelling without the occupants' permission. I doubt the residents at 7901 even know about the hunt outside their windows let alone gave permission. Even if the marksman has the authority to break state laws, it doesn't make it right.

Chuck, You realize we've been discussing hypotheticals from the start right? I'm not sure how many times I have to qualify that? Problem so far is none of the powers that be have addressed or denied that a cull was taking place in that location, so it's looking increasingly like one was. It might not indict the process in your eyes, but it does in mine, and tragically my opinion matters as much as yours.

And it seems we have the location mixed up. I'm taking about here: http://tinyurl.com/2jvvcg (click aerial view). Maybe halfloop can verify.

DrSaw, you may keep your weapons at home, and you may load you ammo, but you don't shoot in the backyard. You could easily build a 100% safe range, but I bet you your neighbors wouldn't like it. I'm glad you realize that at least some people with guns can make mistakes!

Let's make it clear. I'm all for the cull; I don't mind if all the deer are gone from the park and end up on my dinner plate. And what's more I raise the concern in defense of the cull.

It's a poor location if in appearance alone, and that's all there is to it. So if the commission and all of us at the FOW want to keep things low key and avoid controversy, we'd better make sure the hunter doesn't shoot at deer 60yds from a populated family apartment block.

hypothetically

You do know if they make it public the locations or even methods they could/will run into a whole bunch of issues?

I was just pointing out how many safe ways you could kill deer in that location.  You seem to be saying that's impossible.   Yes, mistakes can be made, but its the professionals job to minimize them.  The history and facts we have seem to suggest they are good at doing this.

I did not say my opinion matter more than yours.  I simply pointed out how that situation could be other than what you suggested.

Hypothetically, I could get struck by a meteor right now.....

Exactly, why then do it in such a conspicuous place, safe or not?

Maybe because at 2 in the morning it's fine.  Maybe because they feel it's a good location to carry this out, and it outweighs that there are apts near.  Or maybe they aren't even shooting there.

I don't know.  But I think if they are trained the way it seems, their judgment should be better than any of ours....

[grabs popcorn.......sits back :o]

That's a good law... Get permission. Sign up with cryo lab, get frozen, thawed 150 years later, piss for 30 minutes (who can get this reference) then go hunt!
Oh wait... there are new residents. Need new permission...
Repeat...

dz

fishnchips,

Your location: http://tinyurl.com/2jvvcg (click aerial view) is exactly where I saw the deer eating.  They may use these baited areas to take an inventory of the deer population and determine which locations are best suited to utilize the sharp shooter.  I think this has been going on since 2001 according to FOW website.  I can't find the totals anywhere on the web but I remember hearing it was like over 200 deer in the first 1-2 years ~ this may be Wissy + Pennypack.  I think the desired number of deer for Wissy is 30.

With the amount of bikers in the park, I would have thought there would be other sightings of feed zones. ???

We all need to move away from the park we love to ride, raze our swellings, replant native plants, and let the deer population get back to normal. You can't have your park and eat it too!

I'll eat bullets for breakfast. "I'll put mustard on them and eat the fucking things..." Jerky Boys

So what time is the curfew at the park? And is this happeningnow? I know a few guys who do rides that sometime end around Midnight. I would hate to have not told them about this and an "incident" occured.

This might have been posted earlier in this discusion, but I couldn't find it, sorry.

Thanks.

The current curfew is 8pm to 6am. If you go out make sure you wear antlers on your helmet.

Two more questions I am sure were answered somewhere else:

Does this affect Pennypack Park as well?
When does it end?

Not sure about Pennypack. Curfew ends March 31. Happy riding and hunting!!!!